HREOC Website: National Inquiry into Children in Immigration Detention
Transcript of Hearing - ADELAIDE
Tuesday, 2 July 2002
Please note: This is an edited
transcript.
This witness later agreed
that his evidence could be made public.
Commissioners:
DR SEV OZDOWSKI, Human Rights Commissioner
MRS ROBIN SULLIVAN, Queensland Children's Commissioner
PROFESSOR TRANG THOMAS, Professor of Psychology, Melbourne Institute
of Technology
MS VANESSA LESNIE, Secretary to the Inquiry
CONTINUED
FROM PUBLIC HEARING
DR OZDOWSKI: Ladies and gentlemen, I would like now formally to begin
this in camera hearing for the Inquiry into Children in Immigration Detention.
My name is Sev Ozdowski, and I'm a Human Rights Commissioner. To my right,
I have got Professor Trang Thomas. She is a Professor of Psychology at
Royal Melbourne Institute of Technology and on my left is Mrs Robin Sullivan
who is Queensland Children's Commissioner and both of them are Assisting
Commissioners for the purpose of this Inquiry. There is also two people
from Commission Staff; on my left is Ms Vanessa Lesnie who is secretary
to the Inquiry and on my right, Jonathan Hunyor who is our legal counsel.
Now, whatever we will say here will be kept confidential.
A copy of the transcript
will be sent to you for correction, but it won't be used for distribution
to any other people or authorities. We also won't quote directly from
what you say but we will use your evidence to inform the ... issues in
the context of the report, and we will use it also to question further
Immigration and so on but without any attributions to you. The status
of statutory declaration you provided us with is about the same. If we
would like to use something in a way which may identify you, we will come
to you and clear it with you and we won't do it without your permission.
MR ALLAN JOHN CLIFTON, sworn [12.32pm]
Ex-Operations Manager, Woomera
DR OZDOWSKI: Could I ask you maybe to give your name, address, qualifications
and capacity in which you are appearing, for the record, and also I would
like to ask the gentleman who is sitting next to you to introduce himself
as well.
MR CLIFTON: My name
is Allan John Clifton. My current address is [address deleted]. I was
the operations manager at Woomera for a period of 16 months from early
2000 up until July 2001. From there, I went to Perth as a civil manager,
spent a few weeks at Christmas Island over the Christmas just passed.
I've been off work now since March this year. I've been diagnosed as suffering
from Post Traumatic Stress Disorder and major depression, currently being
treated for that illness. My background is basically prisons in Victoria,
both government and private.
DR OZDOWSKI: Mr Clifton,
could I ask your companion to introduce himself?
MR TUCKFIELD: Certainly.
My name is Brian Tuckfield. I work as a clinical psychologist for the
University of Adelaide Department of Psychiatry and in private practice
and I specialise in the treatment of Post Traumatic Stress Disorder and
I've been asked to attend today to support Mr Clifton and be with him
during this and after.
DR OZDOWSKI: Thank
you very much. Mr Clifton, what I would like to start with, considering
your experience with prisons, and also considerable experience with detention
centres, could you tell me really what is the difference between these
two forms of keeping people in enclosure?
MR CLIFTON: There's
a number of differences. In prisons I was dealing with male prisoners
and I was dealing with a clientele that came into prison because they
have been convicted of whatever crime and they knew how long they were
going to be there, 18 months, 10 years or life. They knew when they came
in when they would get out again, approximately when they would get out
depending on a number of issues, and because of that you could help them
achieve certain goals in prison, that is, education and recreation and
other activities, and you could sort of prepare them for when they were
released, knowing when that release date was.
In detention you
had to deal also with women and children and we weren't trained for that.
We were used to dealing with a male clientele. Of course, in detention,
detainees come in and they do not know when they are going to get out,
and I would say that in all the prisons I worked at in Victoria, maximum,
medium and minimum, which included open camps, the conditions there for
the prisoners were far better than what they were at Woomera for the detainees.
Things like having to queue up that long line out the door just to receive
a meal, having to use communal showers and toilets. Like, in prisons I've
worked at, prisoners in their cells had their own toilet and their own
shower, had their own facilities, so yes, dehumanising. I've never yet
in all my time in prisons had a prisoner tell me that he felt dehumanised
by having to be there. They knew why they were there. I've had a number
of detainees tell me that they were basically, you know, they were dehumanised
and they were treated, I guess, a little bit like cattle, you know.
DR OZDOWSKI: Yes,
it is the number of prisoners as well, and I must say if I would have
a choice, I would prefer to be in a prison …
MR CLIFTON: Yes.
DR OZDOWSKI: …than
a detention centre, there is no question about it, but tell me one little
thing, why toilets are not cleaned by ACM, why toilets are left to the
detainees and so on?
MR CLIFTON: Comes
down to it's cheaper to get the detainees to clean the toilets rather
than bring private contractors in and that's something that we spoke about
at Woomera during my time quite a lot, you know, the state that the toilets
and the shower blocks got into and that we should bring private contractors
in to do the cleaning, but it always came down to the cost.
DR OZDOWSKI: It's
that simple, yes?
MR CLIFTON: Yes,
it's that simple.
DR OZDOWSKI: That
simple. Now looking at the structure of your organisation…
MR CLIFTON: Yes.
DR OZDOWSKI: …let
us start, yes, in terms of who was responsible for what? Did you have
autonomy when running the Woomera Detention Centre or other detention
centres, or were the ACM headquarters basically involved with daily activities
of what was happening?
MR CLIFTON: You had
a certain amount of autonomy if things appeared to be okay and then if
there's a situation or some, or we had evidence that something may happen,
head office would want to jump in. The problem with that is that because
they were so far removed…
DR OZDOWSKI: Didn't
know?
MR CLIFTON: …they
did not have a feel for what was happening on the ground and they would
come in and make bad decisions, or they would try and direct you to do
things that you knew wouldn't work, and there would be the safety and
security of detainees plus the staff to consider, but they didn't always
consider that. They just wanted that end result regardless, and that caused
a lot of arguments.
DR OZDOWSKI: And
I understand from your declarations that this contributed clearly to the
riots in August 2000?
MR CLIFTON: It did,
it did, it is something that's always - I remember quite clearly. It still
worries me quite a lot because I am convinced - I hope other people will
support me on this - that that riot did not have to happen, it did not
have to happen and I've mentioned it in my submission that it could have
been avoided. We did a lot of work to get to where we could avoid it but
there were some people who had been put in Sierra, as it was called at
that time, that we knew shouldn't have been there, but that happens in
a general clean-up of things and I knew that they were innocent, and I
also knew that we had a number of people that were responsible for certain
things and so did the detainees. And incidentally, one of those people
left there because they believed they had done something wrong and it
should be investigated. They wanted the innocent ones out and I was -
you have read what I said. I won't use the language that I was - that
was given to me but it was basically just take them on.
DR OZDOWSKI: How
cost conscious were the headquarters?
MR CLIFTON: Very
cost conscious, that's a…
DR OZDOWSKI: Very
cost conscious.
MR CLIFTON: As you
are quite aware, sir, it's a private company and the bottom line is always
how many dollars you are making, so…
DR OZDOWSKI: I'm
being told by detainees that, whenever I go and visit different centres,
and from time to time I do it, that new things are appearing.
MR CLIFTON: Yes.
DR OZDOWSKI: So things
do change and quite often it is amusing when we are asking when it started,
and in other words that started, we are told two weeks here, so ten days.
Could you describe a bit what is happening when visits like ours come
here?
MR CLIFTON: I was
at Woomera for your first visit.
DR OZDOWSKI: That
is correct.
MR CLIFTON: And of
course, I felt in those days we reined it fairly well, and of course head
office panics and they want things covered up that they are not happy
about, and so did DIMIA. So a bit of money is spent and, ‘Let's
pretty the place up, let's point the visitors in the right direction,
get them to talk to this group, keep them away from that group, introduce
a whole range of activities, extra activities, just tart the place up
a little bit’. Staff are told to be on their best behaviour, what
they can say, what they can't say and so you …
DR OZDOWSKI: Who
pays for it? It is ACM?
MR CLIFTON: It is
ACM.
DR OZDOWSKI: ACM.
It is not DIMIA?
MR CLIFTON: It is
not DIMIA but DIMIA are in there sort of working with the ACM hierarchy,
directing, yes.
MS LESNIE: What are
the sorts of things that the staff might be told not to say to people
like us?
MR CLIFTON: That
the detainees are extremely well treated, that there's a whole range of
programs, and some of those programs are non-existent. That education
is far better than what it is. They'll have special classes set up so
that you were steered into that and I remember it happening in that particular
classroom and …
DR OZDOWSKI: Yes,
you were rushing me in.
MR CLIFTON: Yes,
I didn't like it but I'd been instructed to do it. But the teachers are
told what to say, the program staff are told what to say and it's, ‘make
it feel really good’. ‘This is a really happy place and the
kids are well looked after and the mothers are well looked after’
and you will remember the medical centre, how totally inadequate that
area was. There were some good staff in there but they were rehearsed
as well, so yes, very high pressure, very high pressure, and you were
also threatened that if it does not go well then you will pay for it.
Heads will roll.
DR OZDOWSKI: The
heads, they will roll if it does not?
MR CLIFTON: If it
does not go well and if we don't get a good report.
DR OZDOWSKI: And
people know about it?
MR CLIFTON: Yes,
yes.
MS LESNIE: Did heads
ever roll?
MR CLIFTON: Came
very close on a couple of things. I think we considered that your visit
was successful, but on a couple of occasions …
MS LESNIE: Does that
mean that we were duped?
MR CLIFTON: Yes.
Yes, you were duped, as you would have been duped during your visit last
week and I know you were because I still talk - I live in that town and
still talk to people.
DR OZDOWSKI: Let
us put it this way. The second time we were more experienced.
MR CLIFTON: Yes,
I'm sure you were.
DR OZDOWSKI: And
let us put it this way, that certainly we were not convinced about a whole
range of statements which were made, yes, especially even with close analysis,
but anyhow you will see our report.
MR CLIFTON: Yes.
MS LESNIE: What sort
of things do you think we didn't see in the visit while you were there
that we should have seen?
MR CLIFTON: You did
not see the sub-standard accommodation.
MRS SULLIVAN: There
were different levels of accommodation at the centre?
MR CLIFTON: Yes,
I mean, the areas that you would have been sent into would have been prettied
up. You didn't - you weren't taken down the back - along the back fence
there and shown the accommodation down there of course, that was very
much sub-standard.
DR OZDOWSKI: People
are still living there now?
MR CLIFTON: Still
- I am talking about the main compound.
DR OZDOWSKI: Main
compound?
MR CLIFTON: I think
at the moment they are in the Mike and November compounds but from what
I hear due to various incidents that have happened there that accommodation
has now been ripped apart basically. You might have been steered into
some nice rooms but on the whole that accommodation is in a real mess.
DR OZDOWSKI: In talking
about food…
MR CLIFTON: Yes.
DR OZDOWSKI: Usually
we are told how good food is and so on, what is your experience of food?
MR CLIFTON: Okay,
when I first started at Woomera the food was prepared by a firm called
[name removed]. They had the contract and the food was atrocious. It was
- I wouldn't have eaten it myself.
DR OZDOWSKI: ACM
didn't eat the food prepared for detainees?
MR CLIFTON: No.
DR OZDOWSKI: No?
MR CLIFTON: No, they
didn't, and it caused quite a few problems and you know there was no culturally
prepared food for the different nationalities there and it was slop, it
was absolute slop. And the kitchen - the original kitchen was a real nightmare,
it was a real mess, and it caused a lot of problems and I started what
we called "food meetings" where we would get elected detainees
and sit down with the on-site manager of [name removed] and try thrashing
these problems out. It did improve it and then they decided to do away
with it and take it over themselves.
Even at the end it
still wasn't really good and the conditions in the kitchen definitely
were not hygienic until they built that new kitchen. Well, they re-hashed
the old kitchen of course. From what I hear now, the conditions in that
kitchen are now worse than what they were with [name removed]. It was
probably prettied up for your visit, but talking to people that actually
work in the kitchen and also staff, operational staff, they say the food
now has gone back to what it was two years.
DR OZDOWSKI: Kids
were especially critical of foods?
MR CLIFTON: Yes.
DR OZDOWSKI: Did
you ever get in special foods for kids?
MR CLIFTON: We tried
to get special food for kids because the kids were just sort of given
what the adults - to eat what the adults were eating. So they tried to
appease the children by giving them just sweet biscuits and orange sort
of cordial to take their mind off it, but it was no good.
DR OZDOWSKI: It has
never really worked?
MR CLIFTON: Never
really worked, yes.
DR OZDOWSKI: Cost
possibly was again …
MR CLIFTON: Once
again it is a bottom line. I mean, the catering area - the kitchen area
- has a specific budget allocated to it. The thing I have found as the
Operational Manager, and more so as the Centre Manager, that you are given
a budget for each area and it is never enough anyway, just nowhere near
enough.
MRS SULLIVAN: Can
you move items across that budget or are they fixed?
MR CLIFTON: Pretty
much fixed.
MRS SULLIVAN: They
are fixed centrally?
MR CLIFTON: Yes,
if I can give an example, my food budget at Perth was equated to, I think
it was, $4 per detainee per day and that had been like that for four years
and of course…
DR OZDOWSKI: Is that
$4?
MR CLIFTON: My costs
had gone up.
MRS SULLIVAN: That
is for three meals a day?
MR CLIFTON: Yes,
my costs had gone up, of course, and we argued this point with head office
because I could never come in on budget for the kitchen, you know, because
of that cost and so I will be honest, you get threatened to do something
about it so you just had to make it look a little bit better because I
was - I am of the belief that detainees are getting three good meals a
day so that takes care of the - that part of the problem, it makes them
a lot happier in that area. So, yes.
DR OZDOWSKI: When
- just going back, when we were visiting the centres, would you be reporting
at the end what we said, what we did and so on, to ACM?
MR CLIFTON: Yes,
the centre manager would have to write a fairly comprehensive report.
There would be a debriefing amongst all of the senior management staff
afterwards.
DR OZDOWSKI: So for
example, there was a situation in Port Hedland where a junior ACM officer
was sitting outside the door of our meeting and what we saw was she was
taking notes?
MR CLIFTON: Yes,
that would happen.
DR OZDOWSKI: When
I approached her she told me that she was only doing her job. So it is
feasible that she was under instruction in a way to record that?
MR CLIFTON: She would
have been under instruction from the Centre Manager to take notes and
I think at Woomera their notes were actually taken inside the conference
room when we had a meeting with you, and then someone would follow us
around as we went out and did the tour, be taking the notes as well.
DR OZDOWSKI: Would
you put any listening devices to the places we were…
MR CLIFTON: Sorry?
DR OZDOWSKI: Would
you put any listening devices to the places we were taken to?
MR CLIFTON: We didn't
put any listening devices but I heard that they are in place now these
listening devices yes.
DR OZDOWSKI: I see,
so whatever we say in the room could basically be listened to…
MR CLIFTON: Could
be listened to.
DR OZDOWSKI: …by
a certain party. What about your interpreters? Interpreters were possibly
reporting to you as well?
MR CLIFTON: They
would be but I must admit - say that in support of the interpreters up
there, when I was there and in particular [name removed] and [name removed]
who you would have met are very, very good.
DR OZDOWSKI: So they
would have high ethics in their profession?
MR CLIFTON: Yes,
those two gentlemen and also other people that worked in that area when
I was there had high ethics, but I heard that that is, you know, slipping
backwards.
DR OZDOWSKI: Now
why are you insisting as an organisation that even professionals wear
uniforms? I do not know how, for example, a psychologist counselling in
the centre could be wearing a uniform or…
MR CLIFTON: I really
can't see the need for them to have to wear a uniform.
DR OZDOWSKI: Why
do you do it, why…?
MR CLIFTON: It is
just ACM's culture, it is what is directed from head office, that all
staff are to look the same.
DR OZDOWSKI: The
culture brought in from prisons or…
MR CLIFTON: No, it
is - some of the ACM - when I worked at Fulham some of the counsellors
and psychologists and staff didn't wear a uniform, it was their choice,
basically, if they wanted to or not. Quite often they just wore street
clothes and I think that is better for interacting with detainees, especially
children. I mean…
DR OZDOWSKI: Yes,
exactly, school teachers.
MR CLIFTON: You want
these people who have problems to trust you, and if they have got to sit
down with someone who is wearing a uniform and they have just been dealing
with an officer who has had a uniform they are not going to relax and
they are not going to get that trust to build up. There is really no need
for it as long as someone has got an ID on so that someone can identify
you, they should be there.
DR OZDOWSKI: Yes.
MR CLIFTON: Yes.
DR OZDOWSKI: Considering
in a way the time limitation it is so good to talk to you that straight,
but let us - we will come to children later. Let us come now to the relationship
between you and DIMIA. Who is in charge because we do get very different
impressions as we go around the country?
MR CLIFTON: Okay,
part of the Business Manager's role on a day to day basis is to look at
what ACM are doing. I mean, ACM has got the contract to perform a certain
range of services so - and ACM has to report verbally and in writing in
monthly reports, daily reports, weekly reports, monthly reports, to the
DIMIA Business Manager and also to Canberra as well. So part of the DIMIA
Business Manager’s job is to oversee what is happening on a day
to day basis. At Woomera, as in all other centres, we would have a morning
meeting, we used to call it "morning prayers". The DIMIA manager
was part of that, but I must say that if there was stuff that we needed
to discuss it would happen after he left.
DR OZDOWSKI: It was
the culture of your place or a similar culture to that which exists in
different places?
MR CLIFTON: That
culture exists in all detention centres.
DR OZDOWSKI: Because
for example, going to Curtin, yes, my impression was that the DIMIA man
was really in charge of everything that was going on there.
MR CLIFTON: That
is - yes, I guess some centres do have that impression. I think we were
lucky at Woomera in the early days, that myself and the DIMIA Business
Manager, even though he was the boss so to speak, but we had a very close
working relationship. So we had a pro-active relationship.
DR OZDOWSKI: Who
was then the manager?
MR CLIFTON: [Name
removed]. We had a very pro-active relationship. We met several times
a day. We discussed things and stopped problems from arising and, you
know, I never forgot that they were paying the bills but we had a more
productive rather than an ‘us and them’. And in Curtin that
did happen. It was, you know, we were in this centre and you will do what
we say. So that …
MRS SULLIVAN: What
about Perth?
MR CLIFTON: There
were two masters to obey, head office plus DIMIA.
MRS SULLIVAN: Sorry,
what about Perth? You say you also have experience there?
MR CLIFTON: Perth
was pretty good. Once - I believe in trying to foster a good relationship.
When I went to Perth, Perth had just picked up a new Business Manager
who didn't really know a lot so that was ideal for me because I found
it - because I knew a bit more than he did. We could work together and
I could explain the way things happened and we had a good relationship.
I spent a lot of time in his office and vice-versa and I would, of course,
sound things off him, of course. If I wanted to run a different program
I’d go and talk to him and yes, we had a good two-way thing going.
DR OZDOWSKI: When
it was coming to a really difficult situation when you had a riot, a hunger
strike or somebody cutting themselves, who would really take the final
decision because, yes, the media would get involved, the Minister?
MR CLIFTON: ACM would
take the final decision, find it often with DIMIA and then say, ‘This
is what we are paying you for, now you go out and do it’ and …
DR OZDOWSKI: Then
the Minister would have to either publicly pay for whatever outcome you
would come up with?
MR CLIFTON: Yes,
as he often has and it has been a bad outcome, yes. The way that I would
try and run it though was that, yes, okay, we were contracted to provide
that service and we had to put certain things in place and go and do the
hard yards but I would still run it past [the Department Manager] first,
I would say, ‘Do you think this is …’
DR OZDOWSKI: The
Minister never attacked you, usually it was …
MR CLIFTON: The Minister
actually supported us quite well.
DR OZDOWSKI: Yes,
exactly.
MR CLIFTON: Even
when things might not have been so good, he did support us.
DR OZDOWSKI: In a
way our visit at this point of time, when tenders are being considered
for extension or contracts, must be extremely sensitive for you guys,
ACM people?
MR CLIFTON: Very,
very sensitive. I mean, the Managing Director made no secret to his senior
staff, myself included, in February this year in Sydney, that they intended
to win this contract at whatever cost so, yes, we were warned that there
would be a number of visits from high profile organisations and people
such as yourself, and that we were to bend over backwards to accommodate.
We weren't given any extra resources to do this, of course, but we just
had to do it at whatever cost, fudging the figures.
DR OZDOWSKI: So when
I see all this, for example, new plants put in or some little things here
and there …
MR CLIFTON: Yes,
yes, yes.
DR OZDOWSKI: …
it means it needs to come out of a budget somewhere and possibly it will
come out of food or something like that?
MR CLIFTON: Yes,
yes, yes. Or you might be lucky, they might give you $2000 to do something
with but yes, as you would see, the plants are new they are not established.
DR OZDOWSKI: Yes,
yes, they were just put in the ground.
MR CLIFTON: The food
is really good but they got a little bit smart in the end I guess and
so instead of making the food good on that day, it may have been made
good for four or five days beforehand.
DR OZDOWSKI: Yes,
because usually I eat food jointly with people …
MR CLIFTON: Yes,
yes.
DR OZDOWSKI: …
and so far what I have seen here - I certainly wouldn't like to pay for
this kind of food in a restaurant, but it is edible.
MR CLIFTON: Yes,
and you would also have seen probably that the detainees were not used
to staff sitting down and eating with them.
DR OZDOWSKI: Yes,
yes.
MR CLIFTON: A lot
of …
DR OZDOWSKI: You
ask a question?
MS LESNIE: Yes. You
say in your statement that you are aware of some penalties that were imposed
by DIMIA on ACM.
MR CLIFTON: Yes,
yes.
MS LESNIE: What sort
of things would DIMIA impose a penalty on ACM for?
MR CLIFTON: If they
thought that - it was divided into all areas, we call it KPIs, Key Performance
Indicators. SDO, special Service Delivery Outcomes and break it down into,
you know, your security programs, education, medical and so on and so
forth, so each area would be targeted.
For example, if you
had a number of escapes, there would be a certain penalty imposed per
detainee that escaped, a financial penalty. If they believed that there
were not enough program hours delivered there would be penalties. Medical,
if they believed there were problems with medical, or if they believed
the problem is with security.
And what that led
to, because we were never ever given enough resources both financially,
staffing wise and whatever, the figures had to be fudged and I used to
make a big issue about this because I don't believe that it is the way
to do things. I think the main area where the figures were fudged was
in programs. There were fantastic figures pumped up and especially more
so for visits.
DR OZDOWSKI: Yes.
MR CLIFTON: If you
look behind them there was not a lot of substance, it was just figures.
DR OZDOWSKI: Did
you see the submission from the Department of Immigration?
MR CLIFTON: I had
the opportunity to flick through it a couple of days ago and yes.
DR OZDOWSKI: Is it
a fiction?
MR CLIFTON: Fiction,
I would have used another word, sir, but it is fiction.
MRS SULLIVAN: Is
there a one size fits all set of KPIs or is it - are the contracts done
on an individual basis?
MR CLIFTON: You mean
for the Centres?
MRS SULLIVAN: Yes.
MR CLIFTON: Basically
it is a one size fits all.
MRS SULLIVAN: Because
we have observed some different practices in different Centres.
MR CLIFTON: A good
Centre Manager will recognise where something needs to be improved and
do something about it. When I went to Perth, for example, there was no
emergency procedures manual in place and the place had been open for almost
four years contractual obligation to have that so I had to - I re-wrote
one and made it suit Perth and since then they have picked it up and tried
to make it fit other centres. There is no operations manual. It was -
that worked with Perth.
DR OZDOWSKI: Talking
about manuals, we were told that when an emergency happens in Woomera,
when there is a riot, strike, whatever…
MR CLIFTON: Yes.
DR OZDOWSKI: …
that the manual is saying that children should be taken away and put into
secure places. Do you remember this page in the manual?
MR CLIFTON: No, I
don't. Did you get to read it?
DR OZDOWSKI: Well,
I asked to see it and it wasn't provided …
MR CLIFTON: I can
tell you now …
DR OZDOWSKI: …
so maybe they are writing it now?
MR CLIFTON: I can
tell you now it doesn't exist.
DR OZDOWSKI: Yes,
yes, but was it a policy of ACM that, if you have riots or whatever, you
try to secure children?
MR CLIFTON: When
I was there it wasn't. I remember when orders were given to use gas that
I said gas should not be used because we have women and children. That
was on a couple of occasions, it was overridden but I said to them, the
staff that were dispensing gas, ‘Don't aim it at women and children,
you know, try and keep them safe’. Because children would be running
around out of control, screaming. You know, it was very traumatic for
them and to start throwing gas in as well…
DR OZDOWSKI: Do you
have any - we heard so much - not so much in Woomera but in other centres,
that you have some kind of electrified batons, some kind of …
MR CLIFTON: Cattle
prods.
DR OZDOWSKI: …
cattle prods or some of your batons discharge some electricity?
MR CLIFTON: No, no.
DR OZDOWSKI: No.
MR CLIFTON: No, we
have fixed batons and they have the ASP batons extendables that you flick
out and they extend.
DR OZDOWSKI: They
do not have any electric charge or something like that?
MR CLIFTON: No.
DR OZDOWSKI: As far
as you know, no. And another thing, the use of chemical restraints. Would
you - how often would you use it and in what circumstances would you use
it?
MR CLIFTON: It only
got used on a couple of occasions that Woomera had, and it was basically
to pacify someone because…
DR OZDOWSKI: Yes.
MR CLIFTON: …they
were at risk to themself.
DR OZDOWSKI: Yes,
or destroying property or something like that?
MR CLIFTON: Yes,
and you needed to give them something that would just pacify them. It
wasn't - I made sure it wasn't overused but my main concern at that time
if we had to use that was that it was used basically as a last resort
because this person was going to do some damage to themselves.
DR OZDOWSKI: Yes,
but was it used after a so-called doctor's prescription or you just didn't
have time because it was an operational situation?
MR CLIFTON: Didn't
have time, especially in some of the stuff I was involved in after August,
we didn't use it in August.
DR OZDOWSKI: So you
had to use it and then eventually go to a doctor and say …
MR CLIFTON: Often
- I can't remember it being used during a riot. These were more isolated
incidents where someone had been up on a roof. I remember one guy that
was up in a tree and it took me four hours to get him down. Even when
he got down he really wanted to hurt himself.
DR OZDOWSKI: He was
so upset, yes?
MR CLIFTON: Yes,
yes.
MRS SULLIVAN: What
about sedation, generally to keep the general population sort of pacified?
Was there any use of sedation?
MR CLIFTON: Not really.
I believe that there is probably over-use of some prescription medication,
there wasn't enough control over the dispensing of it, and as a result
detainees were able to hoard Panadeine Forte and stuff like that. Fair
enough, you get Woomera now you get [the doctor] from the hospital. He
has been there for some time and he is very much aware of the danger,
and he keeps a very tight control on prescription medication, yes.
DR OZDOWSKI: So you
didn't add any sedatives to foods in general to keep them …
MR CLIFTON: No, to
be honest, I have never seen sedatives added to food, never.
MS LESNIE: Sorry,
in the - going back to the sort of standards that you would use to determine
your reaction to whatever event, did you ever use the Immigration Detention
Standards as a guide to that? Have you ever heard of the Immigration Detention
Standards?
MR CLIFTON: Yes,
yes, I have read them. If we had an incident - well, most incidents we
knew were going to happen, we might have had time during that incident,
and I quote the June riot in June 2001 where the detainees controlled
the main compound and we had to go in and take it back. Okay, we had time
to sit down and write an operational order or SMEACC, do you know what
that is? Yes, and we would be - for those that don't; Situation, Mission,
Execution, Administration, Command, Control.
It is a way of preparing
for a major operation, briefing all the staff, and that would be done
using Immigration Detention Standards, when I was there, as a guideline,
and also our Emergency Procedures Manual. At the briefing for that I would
include the DIMIA Business Manager to be present at the briefing to read
the operational order and to sign off on it as well so he was part of
that. Even though they were saying, ‘This is part of your job, you
go and do it’, I would want to make sure that they were happy with
what we were about to do, yes.
MS LESNIE: Is it
fair to say that they had some influence over (a) the writing and (b)
the execution of operational policies? The Immigration Detention Standards.
MR CLIFTON: Yes,
they had some…
DR OZDOWSKI: Part
of the contract.
MR CLIFTON: Part
of it I guess you would be making sure that you work within those guidelines
wherever possible, sometimes the situation may change that dramatically
that you just could not physically do that. But on the whole yes, you
would try and work within those guidelines, yes. That was the way I worked
anyway.
DR OZDOWSKI: Mr Clifton,
maybe let us move to children.
MR CLIFTON: Yes.
DR OZDOWSKI: Maybe
I will ask my assistant Commissioners; do you have any questions about
this, of a general nature, of the relationship between DIMIA, between
headquarters and the ACM locally? No.
PROF THOMAS: I was
just surprised at the escape recently that happened.
MR CLIFTON: Yes.
PROF THOMAS: It happened
so easily. What is your view about the security of the place?
MR CLIFTON: There
is - okay, I won't mention names, but the Centre Manager and the Operations
Manager are not used to working in detention centres. They have really
no idea of detention security. The staff are completely demoralised at
this point in time. They have not supported the staff in a long, long
time and it is a really ‘I don't care’ attitude any more.
Coupled with that, most of the permanent staff have now left and the place
is - the centre is basically staffed with people that have come from Port
Augusta. I am not saying there is anything wrong with Port Augusta but
they are casuals that come from Port Augusta. They have been pushed through
a condensed training program for four weeks.
During those four
weeks they have to work six by twelve hour days per week and that is the
way that they have trained them and then they throw them in there. The
training is totally inadequate. When I was in Perth I got some of those
people that have been trained like that, and when I got them into Perth
I just completely retrained them because they just had no idea, it was
just all crammed in. As you can imagine, six twelve hour days per week
trying to absorb all this stuff that they had never heard of before.
DR OZDOWSKI: So…
MR CLIFTON: That
security - they didn't have enough time to talk or do much with security,
so yes.
DR OZDOWSKI: So basically
it is the situation of the publicity and so on, it is impacting on staff
as well, yes, they…
MR CLIFTON: Of course,
of course.
DR OZDOWSKI: It is
not only detainees who are getting disheartened or sick in terms of their
mental health but also it is impacting, I see, on everyone who is there.
MR CLIFTON: Staff,
I must say, I want to raise this point that staff have, in the last twelve
months, staff are being asked to do things that they are not comfortable
with and that is to use batons on detainees. It doesn't matter whether
they are male, female or children, that is to - during the Easter riots,
for example, this was not made public, of course, but women were put on
the ground and their wrists were cuffed to their ankles because they believed
that the women were causing problems. So they were left laying on the
ground trussed up. It didn't matter that the kids were screaming because
their mother was on the ground, that is what was happening.
DR OZDOWSKI: So what
they put…?
MR CLIFTON: They
put those flexi-cuffs - you would have seen flexi-cuffs.
DR OZDOWSKI: Yes,
on…
MR CLIFTON: You cuff
your wrist to your ankle.
DR OZDOWSKI: I see,
so you need to sit on the ground.
MR CLIFTON: Or lay
on the ground.
DR OZDOWSKI: For
what length? And it was the protection of children so you say?
MR CLIFTON: No, not
to protect children, because they thought the women were going to cause
a problem, or they might have been yelling and screaming as you would
be doing if you were caught up in something, and so it was cuff them and
throw them on the ground and their kids were just left to run around.
Now, I know that a lot of staff were extremely traumatised by what they
witnessed and not only by what they witnessed but what they were directed
to do.
MRS SULLIVAN: Have
they been directed to do anything in relation to children and young people
that is new or different?
MR CLIFTON: Well,
it is not the way we used to operate, I guess.
MRS SULLIVAN: You
mention the example of women, I just wonder whether there was any in relation
to children and young people that is a new or different strategy that
was used?
MR CLIFTON: I can
quote an example that happened, I think it was late last year, I wasn't
there, I was in Perth, but there were some - there was a group, a small
group, of unaccompanied minors that - because they weren't being managed
properly, no-one was communicating with them, were playing up, I guess,
they had had enough and they refused to move from the compound and staff
– the Centre Manager wrote an operational order where it was directed
that staff were to go in and move these people and use force and use batons
on them and use gas if they had to, and that was something that we would
never have done. We wouldn't have written a specific operational order
to deal with children.
MRS SULLIVAN: Yes.
MR CLIFTON: Especially
unaccompanied minors.
DR OZDOWSKI: Yes,
so batons, what you are saying, are used now more on a regular basis?
MR CLIFTON: A regular
basis.
DR OZDOWSKI: …
to keep the order, and you can get bashed really by accident if you are
in the wrong place or something like that?
MR CLIFTON: Yes,
during that Easter stuff, I mean, the public sees what was happening outside,
you know, and the attacks on the fence, of course, but what they don't
know was what was happening behind the scenes.
DR OZDOWSKI: What
was happening behind the scenes?
MR CLIFTON: That
was where detainees were just getting bashed. You always will have in
these places a small minority of staff that will feed on that sort of
thing.
DR OZDOWSKI: Yes.
MR CLIFTON: That
you actually - when it was all over, of course, I guess they feel some
burden so they talk about it, they brag about it to someone. Some of them
brag about it.
DR OZDOWSKI: Debrief
themselves, in a way to ease it?
MR CLIFTON: Yes.
MRS SULLIVAN: What
about in general the relationship between the officers and the kids?
MR CLIFTON: When
I was at Woomera we had a large number of kids. In general that relationship
was good and you would see staff that came out of prisons and weren't
used to working with them and some of them were hardened staff. You were
- one of the pleasing things was you would see some of these people, and
I am talking about males and females, that would get really soft with
the kids and they would go out of their way to help the kids and they
would play with them, you know, sometimes they were criticised. I did
- I supported that and encouraged that but on the whole, in those days,
the relationship was pretty good given that we didn't have any other resources
to help these kids, yes, it was pretty good, that relationship was …
DR OZDOWSKI: I didn't
see this time.
MR CLIFTON: Sorry?
DR OZDOWSKI: I didn't
see this time. This time it was …
MR CLIFTON: No, you
might have seen it last time.
DR OZDOWSKI: Yes.
MR CLIFTON: No, you
would not have seen it this time.
DR OZDOWSKI: No,
this time it was clearly - it was possibly the only centre where the aggro
between kids and ACM officers was that high.
MR CLIFTON: That
centre has been badly managed now for longer than twelve months and the
[person] that just recently left there is the same [person] who said to
me during the August riot …
DR OZDOWSKI: ‘Do
it’?
MR CLIFTON: ‘Do
it’.
MS LESNIE: There
have been some allegations by former staff that their contracts were not
renewed because they were getting too friendly with the detainees.
MR CLIFTON: Yes,
yes, I have heard that, yes.
MS LESNIE: Is that
possible?
MR CLIFTON: There
has been a lot of - because people's contracts have been coming up for
renewal, and they have been re-employing people just on three month contracts
and generally messing people around, there has been a lot of pressure.
Because of that it has made it very competitive and there is a lot of
pressure and intimidation, ‘Don't get too friendly or you won't
get your contract renewed’, and, ‘Don't do this or you won't
get your contract renewed’.
DR OZDOWSKI: Because
less of you are needed yes?
MR CLIFTON: Yes,
yes.
DR OZDOWSKI: Less
detainees are there so …
MR CLIFTON: Yes.
MS LESNIE: What would
be the reason for not having staff be friendly with detainees?
MR CLIFTON: Well,
I personally couldn't think of any good reason, because I think if staff
are friendly with detainees, as long as everything is legal, you are going
to have happier detainees. I think it just becomes a management tool gone
wrong where it has been turned around and used against the staff, ‘We
don't want you because you have been playing with those kids or sitting
down on the ground and talking to those people, so you must be doing something
wrong’. A lot of mistrust now. As I said, people are competing to,
you know, keep a contract.
DR OZDOWSKI: What
was also interesting that I think was for the first time ever, when you
met individuals, not of your official name but of individuals, they were
giving us much more of a story which was, I think, agreeing very much
with your assessment of the present situation at Woomera.
Now, coming to kids.
School looks to me like a fiction. Is it true that basically nothing is
happening there?
MR CLIFTON: It is
a fiction. For a short period of time I think it almost worked. It probably
worked more with the UAMs because we really - when I was there I put some
things in place to protect those UAMs, and part of that was to make sure
that they went to school each day, and I had officers that were tasked
especially to look after them and they made sure that they got up, had
their breakfast and got up to five hours schooling per day. We also had
a curfew at night to keep them safe as well. It worked with the UAMs for
a short period of time, it wasn't made compulsory for any other kids but
it was - look it wasn't service delivery - the service delivery wasn't
there anyway so it is pretty much a fiction.
DR OZDOWSKI: What
about the use of playgrounds or use of other recreational facilities,
because we were taken to a few plasticky things but we never saw a kid
using them?
MR CLIFTON: When
I first started there was half a playground up in the main compound, we
had another complete playground which had been donated by an organisation
in Woomera. We tried to get it put up, but ACM said there was a liability
if someone hurt themselves so they wouldn't let them up.
When they started
building - like in November - compounds there were big plans to have playgrounds
and grassed areas in place and it didn't happen because of the costs.
They could never agree on how much it should cost or how much money should
be spent and I remember arguing with them several times, and I wasn't
the only one. The Centre Manager at the time was arguing as well, and
program staff were arguing, but it didn't happen.
MRS SULLIVAN: Were
you there when there was an offer by the Catholic priest to allow the
kids to go to the Catholic school?
MR CLIFTON: No, that
was after my time but yeah, well, actually they did go to the Catholic
school in Woomera for a period of time.
MRS SULLIVAN: Yeah,
you weren't involved in those associations?
MR CLIFTON: No, no
I wasn't involved in that, no, no.
MRS SULLIVAN: Do
you recall any occasions when professionals recommended certain courses
of action, say going to a specialist or something like that?
MR CLIFTON: Yeah,
yeah.
MRS SULLIVAN: And
it was knocked back for financial reasons?
MR CLIFTON: It was
knocked back for - it was always knocked back for financial reasons but
we would - locally we would try and do the best we could but yeah, it
was basically knocked back. There was - I can remember being severely
criticised and threatened with dismissal because - for calling in an ambulance
to get someone presented with a problem that we couldn't treat there.
They had symptoms that we couldn't treat or get them into hospital because
- it was threatened because of the cost.
DR OZDOWSKI: Who
pays for medical treatment, because sometimes we are told that Immigration
is paying for everything, sometimes we are told that it is ACM? How does
it work?
MR CLIFTON: No, no,
on day-to-day medical treatment, or for run of the mill things for going
to hospital, that will be an ACM thing. If someone has to be moved to
…
DR OZDOWSKI: To hospital,
say to Adelaide for an operation?
MR CLIFTON: …
a hospital in Adelaide, usually it would be ACM but it involves the Royal
Flying Doctor and extra costs as well. Then the arguments would start
about who is going to pay, yeah.
DR OZDOWSKI: So you
have to pay most of it?
MR CLIFTON: I had
a situation where we had a guy that had been on a hunger strike for a
long period of time, and it got down to where he needed to be forcibly
re-hydrated. No one would make a decision on that, you need the Minister's
signature for that. No one would make a decision and then it came down
past that and he needed to be brought down to Adelaide.
And I remember over
two days that no one would make a decision, and then it got to where he
couldn't be moved anyway and it looked like he was going to die, and myself
and the Assistant DIMIA Manager, I said to her, ‘We need to do something
because no one else is arguing about the cost’, so we went and spent
a weekend with this guy and I convinced him to start eating.
I actually sat down
and had his first two meals with him and so did she, and he started to
make some sort of recovery. He will never be the same again but we kept
him alive, but we got criticised for doing that, for keeping him alive,
you know, no one would pick up - would make a decision about doing something
about him. But because I took it upon myself to go and work with DIMIA
and keep the guy alive I got investigated over that and she got severely
criticised by her management as well.
MRS SULLIVAN: What
do you mean you got investigated?
MR CLIFTON: I got
investigated for my actions because they believed I shouldn't have done
it, I should have just left him.
MRS SULLIVAN: By
ACM?
MR CLIFTON: By ACM
and ACM investigators, yeah.
MRS SULLIVAN: We've
heard some talk about treatment of pregnant women in the last couple of
days and you may have heard some of that, do you want to comment on that?
MR CLIFTON: In my
time I don't believe that there was adequate treatment for pregnant women.
And I mean, you know, different cultures need to be treated in a culturally
sensitive way. It is not like treating an Australian woman that is pregnant
in a lot of cases, and they did not have the resources to do it. I'm not
blaming the medical staff, they were over-worked and under-resourced,
and I think you have to remember too that they were changing over on six
week periods, so there is no continuity or consistency there, plus the
area they had to work in.
So yeah, it wasn't
satisfactory but the staff and our - the doctors that came in and worked
at the centre on six week rotations - on the whole they did the best they
could do but they were very restricted and, you know, the staff hadn't
had training in these culturally sensitive areas either, they were sort
of working blind as well. And of course the end result was that the pregnant
ladies would be very stressed and the men folk, the husbands, would be
stressed, and of course the whole would become stressed and then before
you know it they're not eating and things like that, or they're threatening
self harm, so yeah, it was not good.
MRS SULLIVAN: So
issues about getting milk for babies and so on was that …?
MR CLIFTON: There
were issues about getting milk for babies, yes.
MRS SULLIVAN: What
was it you couldn't, or …?
MR CLIFTON: No, it
was just that some people found it, I guess, too hard or weren't listening
closely enough, yeah. If we heard about it …
DR OZDOWSKI: Or it
was too expensive? Because if you buy this formula milk it is quite expensive?
MR CLIFTON: Or it
was too expensive, yeah. I've seen mothers ask for milk for their babies
and it's been poured out of a plastic two litre container, new babies.
They wouldn't have done it if their own wife was…
DR OZDOWSKI: So no
formula milk was offered?
MR CLIFTON: No, not
when I was there, there was none, no.
MRS SULLIVAN: There
was none at all?
MR CLIFTON: No, none
at all when I was there, not that I saw anyway.
MRS SULLIVAN: So
normally that would have been dispensed say from the nurse rather than
the mess?
MR CLIFTON: Yeah,
and I know that the medical staff were trying very hard to do something
about it, yeah.
DR OZDOWSKI: But
it is not a standard - the mother determines what the kid will drink yes,
and informs you, and then you just go yell out of the window, there?
MR CLIFTON: No, it
wasn't - I mean it’s something that had never been thought of. I
must say on that, and on the whole thing I guess, that, in my view, ACM
went into this thing totally unprepared and probably not willing to really
learn.
DR OZDOWSKI: Did
ACM learn over these few years because now they are running for a new
contract and, in a way, I would say you've got a bit of an advantage because
you would have been running it for some time so you - everyone assumes
that you got everyone trained able to do it?
MR CLIFTON: No, no,
no.
DR OZDOWSKI: No,
you didn't learn much?
MR CLIFTON: In my
opinion, and supported by other people, they seemed to - over four years
into this contract and they still don't know how to do it, and they still
do not have it right, and they still fudge figures and they really have
not got a clue. Four years in and they should be experts. They might appear
to be experts in this but they are not, they are not experts in this area
at all.
DR OZDOWSKI: Do you
know your competition for the contract?
MR CLIFTON: Yeah,
yeah.
DR OZDOWSKI: Are
they any better?
MR CLIFTON: Okay,
well I don't think Group Four will be any better because…
DR OZDOWSKI: The
same?
MR CLIFTON: …
they own ACM now or part thereof. APS - I will be honest, if anyone was
to get it I would hope that it would be APS who have had one go at it
and went away and learnt from their mistakes, and hopefully will come
up with some better ideas about doing things. I think they've got an advantage
because yeah, they did it, and maybe they didn't do quite so well but
they're willing to come back and have another go, and they should have
now learnt from their mistakes. And I think if it is someone like APS
they'll be more transparent, you will be able to see better what is happening
behind the scenes, they should be more accountable.
MRS SULLIVAN: You
mentioned that you developed a handbook for emergency procedures. Has
anyone in the last four years developed some sort of handbook or standards
for dealing with families and children?
MR CLIFTON: When
I was at Woomera we – myself, supported by some members of my team
- wrote the unaccompanied policy procedure and a children's protection
policy and procedure. So yeah, we actually did that at Woomera and sent
it off to head office, but it was basically - from what I hear that is
still being used, it is there anyway to be used.
MRS SULLIVAN: So
there are at least two documents?
MR CLIFTON: Yes,
there's two, yeah. I also wrote the - with some assistance of course -
the HRAT policy, the high risk assessment team policy and I re-wrote that
when I went to Perth as well, just fine tuned it because these things
as you know they should - you should always come back to them and continue
to update them.
DR OZDOWSKI: Sexual
abuse of children, did you have any of it there?
MR CLIFTON: Not when
I was there, I mean, there were allegations that there had been sexual
abuse of that young male, that was before I started.
DR OZDOWSKI: Yeah.
MR CLIFTON: In my
opinion from what – from asking questions and interviewing a lot
of people I don't believe it happened.
DR OZDOWSKI: You
believe it did happen?
MR CLIFTON: It didn't
happen.
DR OZDOWSKI: It didn't
happen.
MR CLIFTON: There
was one young male when I was there that said that his uncle was sexually
abusing him. This young male suffered some mental disabilities but I took
him out of that area and we spent a lot of time with him and we investigated
the incident, we got FAYS in, got the Police in, I instigated all that.
It was found at the end of all that that there really wasn't anything,
it was …
DR OZDOWSKI: More
mental …
MR CLIFTON: …
more mental but having said that we - I made sure that we kept him safe
and isolated from that family, not from his friends but from that particular
person. Whilst we were doing this we got him interviewed by a psychiatrist
as well, a child psychiatrist.
DR OZDOWSKI: What
about physical abuse of kids in detention?
MR CLIFTON: When
I was there I'm proud to say that there was no physical abuse of kids
because I wouldn't have stood for it, but during one four-week period
when I wasn't there - I was actually … packing up my house and coming
back up again - one young boy [name removed] was - he was a 10 year old
boy and he could have been - he was a naughty boy, he was just a cheeky
little brat but you could have a laugh with him and have a play around
with him, he was okay, you know. But he upset [an ACM colleague] and they
took him across to Sierra and handcuffed him and gave him a little bit
of minor beating. I didn't find out about it until I had been back in
the centre for a couple of months. I demanded that it be investigated.
DR OZDOWSKI: So you
reported that to the Federal Police?
MR CLIFTON: I went
to a manager who was on site then to file the procedures for FAYS, the
Police and also head office. It was investigated, it was covered up and
pushed under the carpet. I re-activated that again two months later because
I was very annoyed that it had been allowed to happen.
DR OZDOWSKI: Pushed
under the carpet by whom?
MR CLIFTON: By ACM.
DR OZDOWSKI: ACM,
not by the Police?
MR CLIFTON: No, ACM
- they you know, they fixed it so it didn't happen. I tried to get it
re-started again two months later and it got pushed under the carpet and
I suffered for that. You do what you have to do, I mean it should never
have happened, he is a ten year old boy.
DR OZDOWSKI: So all
that reporting that exists through State Government or the Federal Police,
it is far from perfect?
MR CLIFTON: Yeah,
I’ve got some criticism of FAYS. More often than not, when you reported
something to FAYS they just wouldn't want to know about it, ‘You've
reported it, don't worry about it, it's okay’. Well, it's very hard.
I found that the - some of the Police from Port Augusta were very good,
one young - one female sergeant in particular - I can't remember her name
at the moment, but she was very good and really pushed. She would run
into stone walls as well, brick walls as well, but I believe FAYS’
performance as far as children in detention goes is far from adequate.
MRS SULLIVAN: What
about the Federal Police?
MR CLIFTON: Hopeless.
DR OZDOWSKI: Just
not interested?
MR CLIFTON: Just
not interested. They would come up there for the few days that they could,
spend part of the time at the centre and the rest of the time down at
the … very disappointed in their performance. Even when we did everything
that they had asked us to do as far as report writing and all of that
sort of stuff, we gave evidence and they would always find something else
and it was just so - it didn't work, it didn't work, they were never satisfied,
but then I had a feeling that they really didn't want to be there anyway.
PROF THOMAS: Given
that the detention centre just like reasons may have to exist. What would
be your recommendation that things should happen?
MR CLIFTON: I wouldn't
have a detention centre at Woomera, I believe Baxter probably wouldn't
be quite so bad, the environment won't…
DR OZDOWSKI: You
would close down Woomera?
MR CLIFTON: I would
close down Woomera.
DR OZDOWSKI: Is it
beyond repair?
MR CLIFTON: It is
beyond repair. It's never worked, it just never worked. I believe the
model in Woomera in the township, I believe that has been fairly successful
from what I hear, and I would expand those models. But I would definitely
do more for the families, at least for the families, I mean get them out
to like home detention, put them - re-settle them in areas where there
is like home detention and - but get them out of that environment, that
environment just changes people.
I mean detainees
come in traumatised anyway, in most cases traumatised from past events
that we can - we hear about but we don't really know what's it like because
we haven't experienced it. And they come into an area like that, an area
of uncertainty, and not knowing where they're going to go next and they
feel helpless and hopeless, and then all these other problems will start.
Small things compound one upon the other and yeah, it's not successful,
I don't believe it's successful.
DR OZDOWSKI: It possibly
cannot be successful?
MR CLIFTON: No.
DR OZDOWSKI: We possibly,
Mr Clifton, need to finish our hearings. It is in a way very good to be
able to talk with you about these things. Would it be possible to come
to you by a telephone and talk when we are completing our reports?
MR CLIFTON: Of course.
DR OZDOWSKI: Just
to check some facts. We will try to protect confidence with what you say
as much as possible, but from my point of view it's of extreme importance
to have this frank experience, and just to understand how this animal
works.
MR CLIFTON: Yeah,
I guess I could talk for a couple of days on this and I still probably
wouldn't cover it all so I'm happy for any questions that you want…
[Contact details
removed]
DR OZDOWSKI: Any
other issues?
MR CLIFTON: There
probably is but I think you've covered a broad area. I do think it is
the whole model – the current model of detention is something that
we should be ashamed of. I think it has - it is not good for Australia's
image but more importantly than that of course…
DR OZDOWSKI: Yeah,
just sending people there.
MR CLIFTON: …
it is not good for the people that have been there, and that includes
staff as well, but I'm ashamed of it. I'll be honest I am very ashamed
of it and I tried very hard to make things better whilst I was at Woomera
and also in Perth but - to my own cause too - but that doesn't matter.
But yeah, I'm very much ashamed of it.
PROF THOMAS: So do
you think that the staff one by one may also be damaged in some way?
MR CLIFTON: There's
a lot of damaged staff out there and that's one of the reasons that I'm
doing what I'm doing, … because for all the reasons, I guess whatever,
a lot of people, a lot of staff, respect me and they need someone like
myself in my position to come out and make a stand. And I think you'll
find that a lot of people, maybe too frightened at the moment for a number
of reasons, will then come forward. And they need to come forward to get
help for themselves as well.
DR OZDOWSKI: Yeah,
we have some of their facts quoted with a number of people who are in
positions of authority and who - some of them spend longer times there,
some of them shorter, but they were clearly under enormous stress, yes,
yes - in a way one asks the question if they are under such a stress how
did the detainees cope with it?
MR CLIFTON: There
is a [person] … he has been there now for [dates removed]. He has
been on anti-depressants now for probably [time removed], still going
to work, and he's too frightened to do anything because he worries about
his financial security and, you know, the future for his family and that,
so he's stuck in this thing that he cannot get out of. And I fear for
the damage, the long term damage that's going to do to him.
DR OZDOWSKI: Damage
it creates for him.
MR CLIFTON: It's
sad, it's even sadder for the detainees as well.
DR OZDOWSKI: Thank
you, Allan.
MR CLIFTON: Okay,
thank you.
DR OZDOWSKI: Thank
you.
Last
Updated 12 August 2003.
