HREOC Website: National Inquiry into Children in Immigration Detention
Transcript of Hearing - ADELAIDE
Tuesday, 2 July 2002
Please note: This is an edited
transcript.
This witness later agreed
that her evidence could be made public.
Commissioners:
DR SEV OZDOWSKI, Human Rights Commissioner
MRS ROBIN SULLIVAN, Queensland Children's Commissioner
PROFESSOR TRANG THOMAS, Professor of Psychology, Melbourne Institute
of Technology
MS VANESSA LESNIE, Secretary to the Inquiry
DR OZDOWSKI:
Opening the next session of hearing in-camera evidence and I welcome Ms
Sharon Torbet.
MS TORBET:
Yes.
DR OZDOWSKI:
Thank you for coming. Everything that you will say here will be kept confidential.
We will provide you with a transcript of what was said. If we would like
to use any of the material you provided us in one form or another in any
way which may identify you, we will come back to you, we will talk to
you about it, but we won't use anything without your permission. Also,
all the transcripts of information will be kept confidential. They will
not go to anyone apart from the staff of my office which works on the
report. Now, we will also make an affirmation in a few minutes but I will
wait for my staff to come in, but could I ask you, for the records, to
state your name, address and qualifications, and the capacity in which
you are appearing here today?
MS TORBET:
My name is Sharon Torbet, I live at [address removed], I am currently
employed as a youth worker with [employer name removed] and I am a qualified
youth worker.
DR OZDOWSKI:
Thank you very much. Can I ask you to state the reasons why you decided
to appear in-camera?
MS TORBET:
Yes, the reasons that I've decided to appear in-camera are that I'm concerned
that if anything I said - any statements I made - were to be made public
it could jeopardise my current and future employment, but I also felt
it necessary to make the statements on behalf of the children in detention.
DR OZDOWSKI:
In what way could it jeopardise your future in your current employment?
MS TORBET:
Okay, because I work for [details removed].
DR OZDOWSKI:
I see, so there could be some linkages there?
MS TORBET:
Exactly, yes.
DR OZDOWSKI:
Now, can I ask you to make an oath or affirmation?
MS TORBET:
Okay.
MS SHARON TORBET, sworn
Ex-ACM activities officer
DR OZDOWSKI: Maybe if you could just introduce yourself for the
record, if you could.
MR TORBET:
Sure, I'm [name removed], Sharon's husband.
DR OZDOWSKI:
Thank you very much. I forgot to introduce myself, I'm Sev Ozdowski and
I'm a Human Rights Commissioner and I've got Dr Trang Thomas to my right
and she is a Professor of Psychology at the Royal Melbourne Institute
of Technology, and to my left I've got Vanessa Lesnie, who is the Secretary
to the Inquiry. We have also got a man sitting here from time to time,
he is our legal counsel to assist with the Inquiry. Now, could I ask you
to make an opening statement and to describe your experience of Woomera,
how long you have been there, what you have been doing and some initial
comments about what you felt about working there, what you would like
to really say to us?
MS TORBET:
Okay, I worked at Woomera from May 2000 and left in the last
days of January 2002. I was due to end a contract a few days before I
left. I was witness to the hunger strikes and the lip-stitching in January
and I just - one day just walked out of the centre, I just said, ‘I'm
not staying here any more’.
It was quite horrific,
like, seeing that first-hand. The work I did, I was primarily involved
in working with the children as an Activities Officer. I felt I was constantly,
you know, fighting against a big machine, trying to advocate for the children
and improve their conditions. Basically I feel like I was a - a square
peg in a round hole, you know, I just - you know, I was able to do some
things like implement excursions, that sort of thing for them, but it
was very limited in what I felt needed to be done.
DR OZDOWSKI:
Activities Officer, does that mean that you were also responsible for
the school?
MS TORBET:
Not - no, I sort of - like, we worked with teachers.
DR OZDOWSKI:
Yes, but separately?
MS TORBET:
Like, we would - depending on the teacher, if you - because of the staff
turnover, you know, you could get teachers there for six months or six
weeks, so if I came across a teacher who, sort of like was willing to
work with us we would incorporate the activities into the children's education.
Sometimes, yes, it works, sometimes not.
DR OZDOWSKI:
You were more responsible for excursions for extra curricular activities?
MS TORBET:
Exactly.
DR OZDOWSKI:
For sport in the centre, and so on?
MS TORBET:
Yes, yes, that's right, yes.
DR OZDOWSKI:
Could you maybe describe what kind of sports were there in the
centre?
MS TORBET:
Yes, okay. Some of the things that I was involved in were an after-school
club where basically we did children's recreation, they played Lego, played
various games, watched videos, and the games could be in art programs,
outdoor games.
What else did we
do? Also a kindergym, I ran - I ran a kindergym which ultimately ceased
because of the recreation room being burnt down with all the equipment
in it, so that stopped and the kids weren't getting that any more. What
else did I do? There was a lot, like - a lot of sort of, like, welfare
work went with it, you know, the detainees were distressed, you would
go to a program one day and, you know, the kids would play while you would
sit there for a couple of hours or an hour just talking with their mother.
DR OZDOWSKI:
What percentage of children participated in your activities?
MS TORBET:
The way that we worked was we were given a particular compound to work
in, this is when the staffing levels were high, and that goes on how many
detainees are in detention - determined how many staff we had - so where
…
DR OZDOWSKI:
So you were working in one compound?
MS TORBET:
Yes.
DR OZDOWSKI:
Not all of it?
MS TORBET:
Yes, sometimes all of them.
DR OZDOWSKI:
All of them, okay.
MS TORBET:
Sometimes the whole lot, but generally, the kids, if you provided
it, they participated, it was a high level of participation.
DR OZDOWSKI:
Of all ages?
MS TORBET:
All ages, from …
DR OZDOWSKI:
Because I remember going to Woomera last year and it was extremely, in
a way, disturbing for me, was that teenagers basically were hanging around
all day …
MS TORBET:
Yes.
DR OZDOWSKI:
… and doing really nothing.
MS TORBET:
Yes, the average age of children attending would be, say, from pre-school,
maybe 4, 5 years old to 12, 13, 14 years old, so there was a gap with
teenagers.
DR OZDOWSKI:
Teenagers?
MS TORBET:
Yes.
DR OZDOWSKI:
Did you try to do something for teenagers?
MS TORBET:
There - we just couldn't, there wasn't enough of us to do the task. We
sort of tried to set up a youth club where you could - they would do dancing
and things like that but the facilities were not - not appropriate. You
know, you can't take 20 teenage boys into a room that's 6 feet by 20 feet
and get quality service from that.
DR OZDOWSKI:
Yes, did you have a chance to have a look at the Department of Immigration
submission, which was put to this Inquiry?
MS TORBET:
No.
DR OZDOWSKI:
This submission provides information about a whole range of things, like
what was provided in Woomera in terms of sports equipment, what excursions
were made and so on. Could I ask you to have a look and see whether this
reflects the tours more or less, or is it in fantasy land?
MS TORBET:
Yes, I can tell you that I was involved in preparing the statistics
for this sort of stuff …
DR OZDOWSKI:
Yes.
MS TORBET:
… and I'm telling you that it is purely statistics, it's - there's
- the quality is not there and it was made to look better than it was.
DR OZDOWSKI:
So basically it does not even make sense to look at their ... to consider
it seriously?
MS TORBET:
Yes, children's tricycles, like, you take a tricycle out there,
it might last two days if you're lucky. You know, have you been to Woomera?
DR OZDOWSKI:
Yes.
MS TORBET:
You've seen the ground?
DR OZDOWSKI:
Yes.
MS TORBET:
You can't ride a tricycle there without it getting smashed. Soccer fields,
you've seen the soccer field?
DR OZDOWSKI:
Yes, if you fell down it is a hospital case.
MS TORBET:
Yes, and people - one of the big complaints from the medical centre was,
‘People are always coming here with grazed knees and injuries from
the recreation rooms’.
Like I said, six
- you know, the demountable buildings, you know, for - really you're only
supposed to have 20 people in them but sometimes there would be 60 people
inside those rooms, and you're trying to run a bingo. But, yes, there
were soccer balls, volley balls, basketballs, badminton, table-tennis,
all those things, and the children's play equipment, you could really
only - they could only access it when we were on duty, either the Activities
Officers or the Welfare Officers.
DR OZDOWSKI:
At what time did you finish in the building?
MS TORBET:
We were, say, 8.30 till 5 and in the compound maybe 10 till 3.30,
4 o'clock.
DR OZDOWSKI:
Basically they went to some kind of a school, what immigration was telling
us, in the morning. So you were available to them really after school?
MS TORBET:
Not all children would go to school.
DR OZDOWSKI:
I see, so you were looking after children who just stayed behind?
MS TORBET:
Yes, and when they weren't at school. The - how it works, children don't
go to school six hours a day like they do in the community, they go for
maybe a 2-hour class and that's it for the day, unless it's different
now, but that's when I was there.
MS LESNIE:
Could I ask whether you actively corralled kids to participate in the
activities or whether they would just show up?
MS TORBET:
They would show up.
MS LESNIE:
When we were just recently in Woomera, most of the kids that
I spoke to, many of whom were under 12, said, ‘There were no activities’.
MS TORBET:
Right.
MS LESNIE:
We had a different version of events from the Activities Officers
themselves and I was just wondering whether there might actually - the
two may be true, but the kids just weren't turning up or didn't know about
the activities going on. Is that a plausible interpretation?
MS TORBET:
It possibly is but I found that I had a real rapport with the kids, so
if I went into a compound there was often times when I'd go in to run
a women's program and couldn't do it because, you know, you would just
be surrounded by 20 or 30 kids. So yes, generally when I was there the
kids would - would come.
MS LESNIE:
Would you have an activity schedule so the kids knew what was happening
and when?
MS TORBET:
Yes, I'd - well that's - I'll go back to, like, a turnover of teachers,
the Activities Officers, Welfare Officers would make a schedule, paste
it either in the mess-hall on the recreation room door, and then you'd
get a new teacher, or the teachers would change their education schedule,
so your schedule was out the window. So we just sort of, like, you know,
it was too hard to keep up.
DR OZDOWSKI:
So really there was no stability in terms of the system, it was rather
a talk?
MS TORBET:
Yes.
DR OZDOWSKI:
Whenever, yes, you had the time and you could do something, then you did?
MS TORBET:
Yes.
DR OZDOWSKI:
And whenever kids came in, yes, you were happy to see them. Tell me, what
was really the most traumatic experience of it?
MS TORBET:
For me?
DR OZDOWSKI:
What really impacted on you especially?
MS TORBET:
The most traumatic experience, I would say, happened over a period of
time but with a - with a climax. It was working with children, basically
assessing them two days after they arrived into the centre, and they're
still in detention as we speak, this is like - I'm going back to December
2000 and they're still there and watching happy kids, you know …
DR OZDOWSKI:
Normal.
MS TORBET:
… normal children, and so the gradual decline in these kids. In
particular, the [name removed] family, who I'm not sure - I'm sure you'll
be aware of this family. Like, we raised concerns, myself and other people,
months, months before the hunger strikes in - in January, which was the
- which was the last thing for me, the very last thing, having to look
into the face of women, as close as I - as close as I am to [my husband],
even closer, mothers, who you would have worked with, and see their lips
stitched from corner to corner. You know, no life in their eyes because
they haven't been drinking, they haven't been eating and then to watch
their children just wandering around ragged with - you know, who can look
after them, they have to look after themselves.
DR OZDOWSKI:
You mentioned that when they arrived they were happy, okay. How long did
it take for them to deteriorate?
MS TORBET:
Usually with kids I noticed and, you know, I didn't sort of, like, do
any recording of it at the time, but my own observations was around three
or four months, between three and five months in detention they start
to sort of - you see their behaviour change, you see their mood change.
DR OZDOWSKI:
How would you describe this behaviour change? What has happened?
MS TORBET:
They suddenly don't talk to us. You know, normally beforehand they'd be
very friendly, very talkative, always smiling, laughing, joking. They
stopped communicating with the staff that see them every day. Fighting,
fight with each other. I remember one incident I had to hold a boy who
was 12, 13, from another boy. They were very close friends. Well, the
other one ran away and it was out of character behaviour. What else? They
would tell me - they'd just come and say, ‘I'm really sad. This
place is - I don't know if I can live in this place’.
DR OZDOWSKI:
Lip-stitching of children, there was plenty of controversy in
January around it and part of the controversy was associated with the
parents who were accused of doing it. Are you aware of any evidence which
would indicate parent involvement in any way, shape or form?
MS TORBET:
No, none. All I can say on that is my experience with the [name
removed] family. The morning that I saw [the mother] lying on the playground
floor with other women, she couldn't even stand up, she couldn't even
sit up. So how she could have stitched her son's lips the night before
is just beyond me.
DR OZDOWSKI:
She was lying on the floor because …
MS TORBET:
On a mattress.
DR OZDOWSKI:
… of the hunger strike?
MS TORBET:
Because of the hunger strike.
DR OZDOWSKI:
She was so weak.
MS TORBET:
Yes, and later on that same day I saw her, like, walking across
the compound in the big compound, the main compound, and sort of like
being held up by her son who was [age removed] and she couldn't even hardly
walk. So I don't see how she could have held this strong boy down and
stitched his lips.
DR OZDOWSKI:
Yes. Did you witness or did you know of any self harm by children?
MS TORBET:
Yes.
DR OZDOWSKI:
How young were the children?
MS TORBET:
I observed a group of unaccompanied minors, maybe 10, 12 of them, in front
of other children, you know, all people in the compound, these boys in
a group just took their shirts off and they had razor blades and, you
know, really slashing themselves like this in front of everybody.
DR OZDOWSKI:
Blood everywhere?
MS TORBET:
Blood, yes, blood, lots of it. It was on the ground afterwards.
DR OZDOWSKI:
Other children saw it?
MS TORBET:
Yes. I was working with a group of children in a recreation room and just
looked out the window and happened to, sort of like, see something was
going on so kept the kids I could in the recreation room but there were,
you know, there were little children like two years old out watching it,
and some of the children that were in my room left when some other boys
came in and told them what was going on.
DR OZDOWSKI:
Riots, did you see any riots happening? What was happening to children
during the riots?
MS TORBET:
They were just in the compound while it was going on. They - some of them
were very scared. Usually the parents would whisk them into their rooms
and shut the doors. You know, you can't lock the doors but they'd shut
the door and try and keep people away. I saw, again the [name removed]
family, I saw the second oldest child, a boy, screaming madly during a
riot, just out of control, running around in circles. You know, I'm talking
about it and I can see it as if it was yesterday.
DR OZDOWSKI:
There were accusations that parents were using children during the riots
to throw stones or to be in the front line. Did you see it?
MS TORBET:
Yes, I did see that. I did see children at the front. Usually boys, and
I did see them throwing rocks.
DR OZDOWSKI:
What ages?
MS TORBET:
From - I can't be exact - maybe around eight years old.
DR OZDOWSKI:
As young as eight?
MS TORBET:
Yes, certainly not any younger than that. Yes, I did see that, but they
were boys, you know, usually boys. It wasn't all parents either. You know,
most of the parents loved their kids, treat them like we do.
DR OZDOWSKI:
I understand there is some kind of procedure by ACM that if riots do happen,
children and women are to be taken into safe places. Do you know about
the existence of such a procedure?
MS TORBET:
I know that it happens once the CERT team, like the response team, has
gone in to whatever riot it is. It doesn't happen, you know, during the
riot. It doesn't happen during …
DR OZDOWSKI:
So during the riot there is no attempt made …
MS TORBET:
No.
DR OZDOWSKI:
… to separate children and families from …
MS TORBET:
Not while I was there, there wasn't. They would, you know, deal with the
disturbance and then deal with the women and children.
DR OZDOWSKI:
Did you see any document which would indicate that this kind of procedure
is in place?
MS TORBET:
No.
DR OZDOWSKI:
No. Professor Thomas, you would like to ask some questions?
PROF THOMAS:
You have observed the deterioration in the children. How about the staff,
do you see that as an impact on the staff?
MS TORBET:
Yes. Yes, on me.
PROF THOMAS:
Yes.
MS TORBET:
Yes, there is. I think particularly, like, for myself because
I've chosen to be a youth worker because of how I feel about children,
you find yourself in a position where I used to say that, ‘this
much has to be done, and they will only let me do this much’. So
there's a big discrepancy in how - in child protection, in protecting
them and nurturing them.
I guess my - what
I feel and what I believe I experienced was that that sort of - the commitment
that staff felt to the children was used by people managing the centre,
that we would go and do things, that we would keep going, we would keep
working, when perhaps it was too much for us.
PROF THOMAS:
So how did the children and some of the parents react when the kindergym
was burnt down?
MS TORBET:
They were really unhappy about it, yes. Like, a little girl who
was two or three years old used to wake up and say to her mother, ‘Go
and play with Mrs Sharon, let's go and play with Mrs Sharon’, and
then she couldn't play any more. And I saw her, you know, a week or so
later and she, the mother, told me that the girl had not been playing,
she wasn't able to play in that time and she was being naughty and she'd
been sad because she couldn't play.
It was - not just
the parents but the people who used to help in the programs, you know,
they became very dejected, very low, very - you can even see it. Like
normally they stand like this, then they stand like that, because they
don't have anywhere to listen to their music, they don't have anywhere
to meet, you know, they don't have anywhere to play table-tennis.
PROF THOMAS:
So in a way, even if we suggested put more resources in, it may not work?
MS TORBET:
Yes, that's right, not unless - no, because if the resources are accessible,
you know, if they're - they can be burnt down still. People can still
burn it down. People can still, you know, break into the room and steal
things.
PROF THOMAS:
So do you have any suggestions on how we can improve the life of the children
at the centre?
MS TORBET:
Take them out.
PROF THOMAS:
Yes, I know …
MS TORBET:
Take them out.
PROF THOMAS:
… that's the ultimate aim but it seems we can't. Are there any other
things we can do?
MS TORBET:
Yes, I think just keep them separate. Keep them separate from the men,
which is difficult when you've got fathers involved. I sort of - one of
the observations I made was that sort of like the boys, you know, in the
youth age bracket, say from 12 to 18, were very impressionable. The young
males, the young adult males, would take - you'd always see them hanging
around, these young adult males, and then you'd see those same males at
the front of a disturbance, at the front, pulling and crashing at the
fences and that was always an indicator to me of when trouble was coming.
I'd see in the boys, the teenage boys, that their behaviour would become
very nasty.
DR OZDOWSKI:
Aggressive?
MS TORBET:
Aggressive, nasty, spiteful towards staff and you'd know that they'd been
in with this group - the group - you know, they'd been in with the young
men and they've listening to the stuff that they're saying and planning,
and all that sort of thing.
PROF THOMAS:
You see the differences in the behaviour of the boys and the
girls?
MS TORBET:
Yes, the boys - I mean, culturally the girls are sort of in my
opinion pushed to the back a bit. They don't always come forward to attend
activities, particularly if there's lots of boys in a compound. I used
to work in the Mike compound where it got to the point where only boys
were turning up for the programs. In the beginning I was getting anywhere
from, you know, up to 50 children, and suddenly it went to 30 and there
were no girls there.
So that was always
a problem and, you know, not enough staff to run separate things. You'd
try it and - overall I found the girls to be - just trying to think of
a word - for want of a better word, apathetic. Like, ‘What's the
point, why bother coming?’ It's not - not all the girls were like
that but it did get to that point, particularly around times of trouble.
DR OZDOWSKI:
If I could come backwards with one question because we will have to conclude
soon. The question of reporting of incidents, and especially the role
of state government, are you aware how the system worked? Could you describe
it to us, please?
MS TORBET:
Yes. Are you talking about reporting to the Child Protection Act …
DR OZDOWSKI:
Yes, yes, it's basically what I'm interested in.
MS TORBET:
The procedure was that there would be a minors’ - there's
a minors’ management team, and every week, you meet every week and
just talk about, you know, discuss things, address any problems or issues.
And there were minutes taken from that, but also a weekly report was prepared
that was about unaccompanied minors and any other issues related, you
know, important issues related to other children. So that report was done
and I know that because I did it. I was one of the people…
DR OZDOWSKI:
Writing?
MS TORBET:
It wasn't my role but sometimes I filled in for the other person.
DR OZDOWSKI:
Where did the report go, to ACM or to DIMIA?
MS TORBET:
The report went to the ACM Manager. He looked at it, said - well, it got
to the point where you e-mailed it to him and you didn't see it again.
I do know that I wrote one report for ACM and another report for Family
and Youth Services with any bits that might not be looked upon favourably
removed or reworded.
DR OZDOWSKI:
The report for ACM, you would think they would keep it on their files?
MS TORBET:
Yes, it is on the files.
DR OZDOWSKI:
But ACM files or DIMIA files?
MS TORBET:
ACM files have - yes, they have them.
DR OZDOWSKI:
There was a standard report happening how often? Every week?
MS TORBET:
Once a week.
DR OZDOWSKI:
Once a week on every single issue relating to children at the
centre?
MS TORBET:
Yes.
DR OZDOWSKI:
Okay. Then you sent the report also to FAYS, yes?
MS TORBET:
Yes.
DR OZDOWSKI:
What was happening? What was the department doing with it?
MS TORBET:
Family and Youth Services?
DR OZDOWSKI:
Yes.
MS TORBET:
[identifying details removed].
DR OZDOWSKI:
Yes. So what was the department doing during the time you were …?
MS TORBET:
Well, this is the other thing, like, when an outside organisation
to do with child protection, including Human Rights, came, program staff,
which is Activities Officers, Welfare Officers, interpreters, are kept
right away. Sometimes we don't even know you're coming until the day that
you arrive. So, you know, the Family and Youth Services would come in
to investigate. My unofficial understanding now is that, just speaking
to certain people, is that it's - they've tried to remove children from
detention but have been unable to because the Child Protection Act in
South Australia is a State Act.
DR OZDOWSKI:
And the complex was Federal.
MS TORBET:
The Federal Act. The Minister uses the Immigration Act to override anything
that Family and Youth Services are trying to do.
DR OZDOWSKI:
When you were working at Woomera did you know that the Department of Community
Services - Family and Community Services - tried to move children out?
MS TORBET:
No.
DR OZDOWSKI:
No, it was not to your knowledge?
MS TORBET:
No, I asked that question later. Yes, I asked that of people
in Family and Youth Services later.
DR OZDOWSKI:
If there were allegations made that a child was abused or there was neglect
or something like that, how vigorous was the department with the investigation?
MS TORBET:
I don't know because …
DR OZDOWSKI:
Looking from your point of view of working in Woomera, you don't know?
MS TORBET:
No, I don't know because, like I said, the management would keep
us away from that sort of thing. I guess to not let any information through,
I - that's my opinion.
DR OZDOWSKI:
Okay, okay. Why were you doctoring your reports going to the Department
in comparison with your report going to ACM management?
MS TORBET:
It was under the direction of the Centre Manager.
DR OZDOWSKI:
So the Centre Manager told you to doctor it so it's a more civilised
version that goes out?
MS TORBET:
Yes.
DR OZDOWSKI:
But he wanted to get from you a fair account of every single thing that
was happening for himself?
MS TORBET:
Yes.
DR OZDOWSKI:
Possibly we will have to - yes?
MS LESNIE:
I just have a couple of things. I wanted to know, in your opinion, what
priority was given to the activities program by ACM? How important were
you made to feel that that program was to the centre?
MS TORBET:
My opinion is that the operational overrode everything. It overrode
- it was sort of like, if you're talking about the hierarchy you had operations,
medical - just trying to think of it - teachers, like education and then
the activities and welfare people.
MS LESNIE:
Could I read to you something from the Department of Immigration,
the Minister's response to the hearings that we had in Perth. Have you
had a chance to read that?
MS TORBET:
No.
MS LESNIE:
One of its points in rebuttal to the issue that was raised in Perth that
there's not enough support for children with psychological problems, they
say:
An important aspect
of maintaining mental health is the provision of a suitable range of activities
such as recreational and education programs. As required, other programs
and activities are arranged to meet the particular needs of the group.
Were you ever asked
to respond to the psychological needs of kids through your program?
MS TORBET:
Under the direction of a social psychologist.
MS LESNIE:
So how did that happen?
MS TORBET:
Okay. There's - a social psychologist was employed to look at target groups,
groups that were seen to be having difficulty, and they were firstly unaccompanied
minors who, in my opinion, were not the most needy group in the centre.
Then it was - no, firstly it was the group of men in the Oscar compound,
to try and work with them, and then it was the unaccompanied minors, and
then the project, the school excursion project, was implemented, and that
was directly because the investigation into children in detention was
happening.
MS LESNIE:
So were you asked …?
MS TORBET:
That as well, so those three projects.
MS LESNIE:
Were you asked to tailor the types of activities that you would do to
address the mental health of those particular groups?
MS TORBET:
Yes, yes.
MS LESNIE:
Were you given the resources that you needed to do that?
MS TORBET:
No, I don't think so.
MS LESNIE:
Can you give examples of things that you would have wanted to do but you
couldn't because of lack of resources?
MS TORBET:
Okay. I would have wanted to take the children out more often. I would
like to have given them like an area of their own to play in away from
men, away from other adults, namely because like, for instance, in the
main compound it was very difficult, we didn't have a recreation room
in the beginning, so it was very difficult to - I was constantly fighting
with officers and men to have that room, the mess, for two hours a day
to run a children's program. Sometimes it didn't happen and we were shoved
outside for activities. What else would I like to do? I would like, I
think, indirectly to improve the life of children in the detention centre,
would be to employ staff who actually specialise in working with children,
like teachers for instance.
MS LESNIE:
Stop kids from screaming, for instance … [reference to
children outside hearing room]
MS TORBET:
You know, there were teachers who were employed to teach children who
had worked as TAFE, ESL teachers with adults. Perhaps some of the officers
themselves could come from a background where they had worked with children
in some area or other.
DR OZDOWSKI:
Any other activities were undertaken as a direct result of us
calling the Inquiry into children in detention?
MS TORBET:
Okay. Excursions. When I first started as an Activities Officer
it was in January 2001. We were told that Human Rights were coming tomorrow,
‘Go out and tell the families they're going on an excursion tomorrow’.
What they called grounds beautification, they would suddenly plant lots
of trees, you know, lots of bushes and things like that, paint buildings
to make them look nicer.
MS LESNIE:
If excursions could be organised overnight why didn't they have them more
often?
MS TORBET:
Generally my experience is it is the operations, operational
people, depending who is in charge at the time, don't want it to happen.
They don't want it to happen. And the other problem is just the actual
organising of it. Like it can take a week to organise an excursion. You've
got to liaise with the town board, the Woomera Town Board, you've got
to …
MS LESNIE:
Sorry, why do you have to contact the Woomera Town Board?
MS TORBET:
Because it's a Defence facility town and the Area Administrator
is basically in charge of what goes on in the town.
DR OZDOWSKI:
So if you would like to take kids to the swimming pool or something
like that, he had to bless it?
MS TORBET:
Yes, you have to - yes, basically, that's exactly right.
MS LESNIE:
If you and your husband wanted to go to a restaurant did you
have to ask the Woomera Town Hall?
MS TORBET:
No, no. If you wanted to move house you did though. So basically
that's the way it runs. The way I describe it to people is it's like the
old days where you have a king who looks after the village. It's like
that, yes.
The other problem
with excursions was organisation, just not - because the way I see it,
the whole time I was there it was crisis management every day. Every day
you go in, you take each day as it comes. Just letting detainees know
- like I was in the practice of not telling detainees there was an excursion
until the night before, because it would be cancelled so often that it
can make them feel worse. You know, if you think you're getting out of
the centre for a couple of hours and then 10 o'clock in the morning you're
not going now, what happened?
MS LESNIE:
What were the reasons for cancelling an excursion?
MS TORBET:
A disturbance.
MS LESNIE:
Even if the disturbance didn't involve any of the kids participating
in the excursion?
MS TORBET:
Yes, because the officers would be needed to, you know, to hang
around the centre.
DR OZDOWSKI:
I see, so it wasn't punishment for disturbance, it was rather for practical
reasons to have officers there in case something else will happen?
MS TORBET:
Yes, that's right, yes, yes. Other reasons would be - I just think it
was not enough staff to run things properly, like there'd be - suddenly
medical would need to use the bus to do something. The medical centre
would need to go and do x-rays or something, and there wasn't that communication
beforehand either. We didn't know. An extra bus - I can remember my manager
putting a proposal for a bus specifically for excursions, that would help.
DR OZDOWSKI:
Yet they have got these two blue cars parked outside.
MS TORBET:
Yes.
DR OZDOWSKI:
They could swap one of them for a second bus?
MS TORBET:
Yes, you would hope so, yes.
DR OZDOWSKI:
Ms Torbet, thank you very much for your evidence. I'm aware it was difficult
for you to come forward. We will keep it in confidence and we possibly
will come to you asking those questions by telephone, just when we are
writing the report, to ensure that we are as correct and factual in the
report as possible. Thank you very much on behalf of the Commission for
coming forward.
MS TORBET:
That's okay. Like I told [Mr Hunyor], it's for the kids. I know
it's for the children.
MS LESNIE:
I would actually just like to add an extra element to that. I know you
were one of the first people who came forward to the Inquiry when you
had concerns about the children and we really appreciate your initiation
of contact at that time.
MS TORBET:
Thank you.
Last
Updated 12 August 2003.
