Transcript of Hearing - PERTH
Monday, 10 June 2002
Please note: This is an edited transcript.
These witnesses later agreed that their evidence could be made public.
Commissioners:
DR SEV OZDOWSKI, Human Rights Commissioner
MRS ROBIN SULLIVAN, Queensland Children's Commissioner
PROFESSOR TRANG THOMAS, Professor of Psychology, Melbourne Institute of Technology
MS VANESSA LESNIE, Secretary to the Inquiry
RESUMED
KATIE BROSNAN sworn
ROSE O'CONNOR, sworn
DR OZDOWSKI: Thank you. Now, could I ask you to state
your name, address and organisation you represent for the record.
MS O'CONNOR: Okay. My address is [address removed].
DR OZDOWSKI: It is okay. It is being recorded.
MS O'CONNOR: Okay.
DR OZDOWSKI: So, we will get the transcript.
MS O'CONNOR: But the organisation?
DR OZDOWSKI: Yes, if you represent organisations, yeah. If you represent yourself, there is no …
MS O'CONNOR: Myself, yes.
DR OZDOWSKI: Yes.
MS BROSNAN: And I am Katie Brosnan, now O'Sullivan. My address is [address removed]. And I am just here as me, not representing anybody.
DR OZDOWSKI: Thank you very much. And I will ask Dr Sullivan to start questions.
MRS SULLIVAN: Sullivan rather than O'Sullivan.
DR OZDOWSKI: Sullivan, yes.
MS BROSNAN: We are all the same. Sullivan/O'Sullivan.
MRS SULLIVAN: I thought that you were peasants and we were the nobility. I guess my initial question is about asking for this session to be in camera because I certainly recognised your faces from the media and I live in deep North Queensland. So, I just wondered whether you could explain to us your request to have an in-camera session.
MS BROSNAN: Well, I felt that I might speak about individual children in Port Hedland and I had a feeling that I mightn't be as open if it was an open session, that I mightn't feel as free to speak. That was my main reason. Probably a secondary reason is that even though I have spoken in public to the media, I am still just a little bit afraid of, I guess, speaking at such a serious Inquiry. Afraid from the viewpoint of ACM, and also probably from DIMIA because I am not a citizen of Australia. I am a permanent resident. And I just don't know - when I was in Port Hedland it was like living in a culture of fear for a start for me as well as for detainees. And I just feel a little bit unsure about speaking publicly. Personally as well.
MS O'CONNOR: Yes, my reasons are I am not sure what the present government - what their stance is on this but I know that there is a lot of contention around the issue of immigration and detention, detainees, etcetera. And I am also concerned about consequences for myself. Yes, until I can get more clarity on that, I actually haven't appeared on the television.
MRS SULLIVAN: No.
MS O'CONNOR: No.
MRS SULLIVAN: I shouldn't have included you in that, yeah.
MS O'CONNOR: Just newspaper article, The Australian. My name was mentioned. Yes.
DR OZDOWSKI: Would you say a bit more about possible consequences for yourself. What do you worry about?
MS O'CONNOR: Well, I don't know yet. It is just - I watch the news very closely and I watch Phillip Ruddock's responses to stuff that is happening and I just think that things are very uncertain at the moment. So you don't know. I am teacher and I could lose my - I don't know. It is just - yes.
DR OZDOWSKI: And, Ms Brosnan, you worry also about your physical integrity - that you will be assaulted or … ?
MS BROSNAN: No. Not from a physical point of view. But I do feel intimidated by ACM and by DIMIA.
DR OZDOWSKI: Even now?
MS BROSNAN: Even now, to a lesser extent. The further away I am from Port Hedland, the stronger I feel.
DR OZDOWSKI: Really?
MS BROSNAN: Hmm. But, at the same time, I feel vulnerable.
DR OZDOWSKI: But you are now a permanent resident of Australia?
MS BROSNAN: Yes.
DR OZDOWSKI: So, basically, your visa outcome does not come into it?
MS BROSNAN: I hope not.
DR OZDOWSKI: Okay. Thank you. Sorry.
MRS SULLIVAN: So, there is no issue about any confidentiality agreements or anything like that?
MS BROSNAN: No.
MRS SULLIVAN: That figured in your decision?
MS BROSNAN: I didn't sign a confidentiality agreement. Other teachers did at the Centre. But ACM seemed to have slipped up with me.
MRS SULLIVAN: So, it wasn't your choice, it was just an oversight?
MS BROSNAN: Yes, on their part.
MRS SULLIVAN: And the same with you?
MS O'CONNOR: Likewise, yeah.
MRS SULLIVAN: Okay. Can we move on to some of the educational issues then? And given that we are going to visit these locations later in the week, I was interested in your comment about cleaning up for visitors. Could you give us some idea of what you mean by that?
MS O'CONNOR: You.
MS BROSNAN: I have seen it happen on a number of occasions. I started work in Port Hedland last August. There was a break over Christmas and New Year and returned to work and stayed there until the last day in March. And a number of delegations came through Port Hedland Detention Centre during that period of time. Prior to each delegation there was always an effort on the part of ACM and DIMIA to beautify the environment. That may or may not have included painting, planting flower beds, sprucing up the school, putting up pictures, balloons, whatever was available to hand, fixing things that may have been broken for long periods of time.
MRS SULLIVAN: So, this was undertaken by you? This was undertaken by the staff?
MS BROSNAN: The school beautification, yes, was undertaken by teachers. We were instructed to - I think I may have mentioned it at one point - to suspend all formal lessons in order to make the school look like a school.
MRS SULLIVAN: Could I just pursue that for a minute?
MS BROSNAN: Yes.
MRS SULLIVAN: I would have thought that schools should look like schools every day. Why didn't it look like a school if there wasn't a visitor coming?
MS BROSNAN: Because there was a serious lack of resources. When you go into a school in so-called normal society, you will have charts, you will have a photocopier, overhead projector, you will have posters, you will have art work, lots of different resources. Schools are normally bright and colourful. The school in Port Hedland was not bright and colourful. It was very drab. In fact, we couldn't even get the walls painted from a bland beige, which had been requested a number of times.
MRS SULLIVAN: So, that list that you provided, none of those items was available in the school you worked in?
MS BROSNAN: There were a few charts.
MRS SULLIVAN: A lot of teachers, in my experience, actually make charts.
MS BROSNAN: Yes.
MRS SULLIVAN: Did you not have that ability?
MS BROSNAN: Yes. Charts were made but there were occasions where there was no paper to make charts on. And, as a teacher, one went out and purchased paper, because ACM’s provision in their budget didn't allow for this. Their budget for that month would have - has already been taken up with other things. So, no paper.
MRS SULLIVAN: Were you aware of a budget that was provided for education?
MS BROSNAN: I was aware there was a monthly budget for education.
MRS SULLIVAN: Were you aware of the amount?
MS BROSNAN: No.
MRS SULLIVAN: So, if you wanted something, what was the process? You filled out a form or something?
MS BROSNAN: I went to my immediate manager, who was known as Programs Manager, and requested materials or resources. He would write that down and put it on an order form which was known as a 108 form. He would then tell me, "Look, you probably won't get this for 2 to 3 weeks." It varied. On such occasions, I would just go to K-Mart and buy the materials myself.
MRS SULLIVAN: So, he could actually approve it? It was just that there was a time lapse?
MS BROSNAN: He could approve the purchase of materials from the budget. But the budget would not allow for it that month. Perhaps the money was already spent. We - while I was there I had two different Program Managers and they both had very different styles. The former manager was quite lackadaisical, in my opinion, as regards purchasing materials. For example, children, for the most part - I would say 80 per cent of children did not have erasers over a two or three month period. And even though I repeatedly asked for this, requested it, he still didn't go and buy it. Now, surely there is provision in the budget to purchase 100 erasers. They are not that expensive.
So, his attitude seemed to be that, well, we don't need to spend this money, whereas the latter Programs Manager was very keen to purchase materials for the school.
MRS SULLIVAN: Was there anything you ever requested that was knocked back?
MS BROSNAN: Yes. On numerous occasions.
MRS SULLIVAN: Can you give us an example?
MS BROSNAN: Well, the primary request is for a photocopier. The school did not have a photocopier since last October, and children in the school did not have individual text books. So, working without text books and without a photocopier to hand is a very difficult task for any teacher. That is the main problem as regards requesting materials that weren't provided.
MRS SULLIVAN: How did you decide what to teach?
MS BROSNAN: For my part, through trial and error. I wasn't instructed on what I was to teach, only that English was a priority. The actual content of my classes were completely left up to me. So, it was a matter of trying to figure out what was best for my students. And that was a very, very difficult process because the numbers and the levels of the students are continually changing, due to the nature of their coming in off boats or they are being released on their TPVs or they are being sent back to their countries or they are just continually there for a long period of time.
MRS SULLIVAN: Have you got specialist training in TESOL or teaching?
MS BROSNAN: Yes.
MRS SULLIVAN: So, was this any different than if you had been placed in a TESOL situation, not in a detention centre?
MS BROSNAN: I think so.
MRS SULLIVAN: I am trying to get how different it was.
MS BROSNAN: Yes. Well, I am not sure I can compare it but I have taught refugee children in Ireland, in my own country. But they were community-based. And it was a very, very different situation.
MRS SULLIVAN: Yes. I am thinking just of curriculum, sort of teaching and learning issues at the moment. Forgetting about the fact that you are in a detention centre, was there anything different and special about this that you found it more complex?
MS O'CONNOR: I have taught ESL - I call it, I leave out the ‘O’ - in Melbourne, and for a number of years on and off. And it is the levels. They tend to - if it is a full ESL program, they tend to put the kids roughly in three groups: Beginners, Intermediate and Advanced. And I just had a small group that was a variety of different levels and different needs in the one class. I think I have mentioned it in my notes. It took a while to work out what were the best strategies. Not enough time. I opted, as I said, for the three and a half weeks. I went there for that amount of time. Really, by the end of it, I knew what I would do. By the end of that. With such a desperate group. I knew what I was going to do by the end of that.
But ordinarily you would - kids coming straight in would go straight into a language centre. Like, at Perth Modern School there is a proper unit there. And they would be other kids on a similar level. I think that - and a similar age group too. That is the essential difference there with the learning, I think.
MRS SULLIVAN: Did you do any language screening like Band Scales or anything like that?
MS O'CONNOR: There was nothing there. There wasn't any profiling system. There wasn't anything done. It is supposed to be done when the kids first come into a school and you arrive as a new teacher. As I said, as a new teacher I was pulling my hair out. I was very frustrated with what wasn't there, what I am used to. Even on isolated Aboriginal communities, there is such a lot of material and support. There was very little. It was like teaching in a vacuum. It was very difficult.
There were materials there. Personally, I didn't consider there was a huge shortage of materials. But there was a photocopier over at the other building and you had to go through a couple of locked doors and up some stairs and ask people and so forth to use it. So, that was an inconvenience. And there was one that wasn't working sitting in the room.
MS BROSNAN: Two that weren't working.
MS O'CONNOR: Two? Okay, yes.
MS BROSNAN: Yes.
MS O'CONNOR: But you were there a lot longer than I was so - as an on-going situation it wouldn't have been very good.
MRS SULLIVAN: Is there anything like - sorry.
MS BROSNAN: I think Rose was also in a good situation. Well, not necessarily a good situation, but in a better situation because she arrived when the new Programs Manager had taken over the school. And at that point he had invested a substantial amount of money into materials and resources like textbooks, exercise books, coloured paper and so on.
MS O'CONNOR: Yes, he had.
MS BROSNAN: So, she is saying that the resources, they were okay. They weren't so bad. But prior to her arrival, prior to January, it really was very poor as regards resources and facilities within the school.
MRS SULLIVAN: You can obviously teach language through other curriculum areas. Did this occur and if so what were the other curriculum areas that were used?
MS O'CONNOR: I used some society and environment material for the older children. And I developed a short program for the younger ones just on the seasons. Because it was very basic language; it was just my own; I didn't have to; I made my own chart. I made some wall charts for that. I drew my own pictures for it and did a lot of flash cards for that. So, I mean, that is what you are supposed to do, you do create your own material, yes. So, I did manage to do that. But, having said that, my main problem in my class was teaching two levels, really. It was extremely difficult in such a confined space. That was my main problem.
MRS SULLIVAN: I guess this is an issue though - and I come from Queensland, in small country schools - that you sometimes teach eight grades in the one room.
MS O'CONNOR: Exactly, yes. That is what our Programs Manager was saying. That was his background. So, he didn't find that a problem, teaching all the different levels. The thing is though, you are teaching a lot of different ESL kids. It is slightly different, I would argue. Because the minimum amount of ESL kids in an ideal situation is 12 in a class all at the same level or a similar level. That is the ideal maximum learning situation. That is the sort of background I was taught in.
MRS SULLIVAN: And what were your class sizes?
MS O'CONNOR: They weren't very big. 13, 14 at the most; they varied.
MS BROSNAN: And mine varied, from one to just under 30 students.
MRS SULLIVAN: Thirty?
MS BROSNAN: Three oh, yeah.
MRS SULLIVAN: Yes. Were there any, what I would call, teacher aides or para-professionals that you had to help you?
MS O'CONNOR: Not professionals.
MS BROSNAN: Not para-professionals either.
MS O'CONNOR: Residents.
MRS SULLIVAN: These were parents?
MS O'CONNOR: I had two - no. They were just …
MS BROSNAN: Detainees.
MS O'CONNOR: Yes, detainees.
MS BROSNAN: Who are employed as so-called teacher's aides. But in effect their job is to translate. So, from my point of view, I usually had one in a class translating for me. And the two main languages are Farsi and Arabic. Most of the children spoke Farsi. And they pick it up. And they translated. They worked very hard. They had no training. And they had very little support from the teaching staff because simply we worked long hours and we just didn't have the time to support them or provide them with any sort of training.
MRS SULLIVAN: And what would be a typical day? How many hours’ instruction?
MS BROSNAN: It varied but there were two different areas for teaching in the main compound school and in separation when people first arrive off boats. When I first arrived in Port Hedland in August this ‘ALL’ boat had just come in at the same time as me and there were around 330 people on that boat and they were all placed in isolation and I taught in isolation or separation, or whatever term was given to it, children were receiving on average one hour of education per day.
DR OZDOWSKI: Are you sure of this?
MS BROSNAN: Yes, yes, because I was there. I was in there and I was a teacher.
DR OZDOWSKI: And how many hours when they were out of isolation per day?
MS BROSNAN: Once they came out they would get four hours per day.
MS LESNIE: Could you tell us, on average, how long kids spent in the separation?
MS BROSNAN: It varied. From that ‘ALL’ boat, which came in last August, they started being released from separation I would guess in mid-November, mid to late November, to be released into the main compounds and by the time I left at the beginning of April of this year I would say all of the children were in the main compound, or had been released with TPVs. They were predominantly Iraqi children.
MS LESNIE: So the minimum time someone - a child - might spend in that area would be … ?
MS BROSNAN: Three months.
MS LESNIE: The minimum time? Is this the area that people stay in before they have engaged the whole protection process?
MS BROSNAN: This is where they are in touch with their case officer and they are making their initial claims and I found teaching in this environment to be very distressing, I really did not like going in there because these people, if they're lucky, get their two hours of fresh air a day and they are just stuck inside and they have no access to the outside world and they see the teacher coming in and they are just overjoyed and it is like a circus. It is just kids, men and women and then your hour is up and you say, "Okay, I have to go now". And many occasions children were crying and, "Please don't go" and women saying, "Oh stay Katie, stay" and I think, "Oh no I have to go" and it is just very distressing.
MS LESNIE: So what were the class sizes in separation compared to outside?
MS BROSNAN: They were absolutely chaotic, because the classes were held in the common room, which is a small room, I don't know if you are familiar with the blocks in Port Hedland. It is a small room and it is a room that everybody uses and because the teacher was coming in without wearing any ACM uniform, we really were an attraction, you know it was like someone is from the outside world and while we tried to separate children from adults, it just didn't work because they wanted some human interaction.
So you would have people coming in and talking, you had little tiny tots, two year olds pulling at you and saying, "A, B, C" and then you had full grown up men, walking around and saying, "Hello, hello" and you had women and it was just really, I could compare it to the circus. So, the numbers could vary from 20 to 40 people, sometimes I took classes outside because I would arrive and the officer on duty had decided, "I am going to let these people out now for their hour", so I would arrive and say - and they would say, "Oh we will bring them back in now".
And I would say, "No, no, no, I don't want them to be brought back in, you know, this is their time outside, so we will go", I would go outside with them and for that time usually we play games, sing, dance, run around and I would just try to do light-hearted things with the children at that point. But the adults would also join in, you would have grown up men and women who would be singing "Old MacDonald" with you. And it was very sad and at the same time you would have ACM officers making comments like, "Oh is this what teachers do nowadays, is that what you're paid to do?"
MRS SULLIVAN: Who was your manager in that sense, who did you have to report to as a teacher?
MS BROSNAN: The Programs Manager who oversees education and activities for all detainees.
DR OZDOWSKI: So it was an ACM officer?
MS BROSNAN: Yes.
MRS SULLIVAN: And has that person got a relevant background?
MS BROSNAN: The first person who was my Programs Manager came from an Army background and he was not a teacher he did not, to my knowledge, have educational training or background or qualifications and he struck me as not being in tune with the educational needs of the detainees at all. The second Programs Manager, who was present while Rose was working, he was from a teaching background. He subsequently resigned at the beginning of May this year.
MS O'CONNOR: Yes and he was a very easy-going person that took a lot on his shoulders, but it was too much for him, that is what I gathered.
DR OZDOWSKI: Now, if I could ask a question, you said it got too much for him, we have plenty of evidence that detention is stressful for kids, what about you staff, how did you cope with it, was it stressful as well?
MS BROSNAN: Yes.
DR OZDOWSKI: Yes, so it impacts on everyone there?
MS BROSNAN: Yes.
MS O'CONNOR: Yes, it is just being in - I wrote about that here, in that environment, just walking into the building, the main thing for me was the sense of oppressiveness, that just - and people watching. I mean they might not directly - I have never had anything said to me directly, or - I didn't see anyone yelled at in my presence or anything like that, in the short time I was there, but it was just a sense of being watched all the time. In the small staff room, when you would be sitting with the detainee support teachers, officers just commanded the - could come in and just command the space, it was the way people commanded the space and the way they encroached on you as a teacher.
And there was a lack of respect for your professionalism, there was a distinct - you could pick it up by what was said, the offhand way we were treated. That upset me, that part upset me, and just a real crowding in on you. I didn't really get anyone coming into the classroom throwing their weight around and sitting on tables. I didn't experience that in the short time I was there. I just heard a lot of noise up and down the corridor all the time. People could be pulled out of class and there were those sort of interruptions constantly. But the atmosphere - I would say definitely it is not a healthy atmosphere to work in.
MS BROSNAN: May I add to that? I found the longer I spent in detention, the more stressed I became and I - like I found that I was going to bed at night thinking about particular children, worrying for their safety, worrying for their well-being. I requested a number of times that I would, as well as the other teachers, receive some sort of debriefing, particularly in January when people were on hunger strike. I found that personally very upsetting because I knew these people and I just didn't feel I had the skills to cope with it. I didn't know what to say to the children. I just wasn't equipped for it, but despite my repeated requests for debriefing on a regular basis it was continually turned down.
DR OZDOWSKI: You also mentioned before that there is a beautification process happening when visitors are coming. A few days ago the Minister said that when visitors are coming there is much more self-harm. Did you experience an increase of self-harm during the time of visits?
MS BROSNAN: Well, unfortunately, Port Hedland is very isolated and the town population I would say for the most part is not sympathetic to having a detention centre situated in the midst of their town, so people do not receive visitors on a regular basis. The visits have increased probably since Christmas where four or five locals, they have a little support group in Port Hedland, they now visit and at Easter time of this year, four young people, three of whom are university students in Perth and who have had a lot of contact through letter and telephone conversations, drove to Port Hedland to spend a week visiting detainees.
They encountered a number of difficulties accessing the centre, but there was no evidence that people were engaging in self-harm after their visits, if anything I would say it is the contrary, that people were uplifted by the fact somebody had visited them. It was the same in January when the Freedom Bus visited Port Hedland, people felt, I think, very pleased that there were people in Australia who were prepared to listen to them and prepared to say, you know, we do have empathy. Prior to that because Port Hedland is so isolated they didn't have contact, they didn't have visits.
DR OZDOWSKI: Coming back to schooling, whenever I visit the centres I hear two stories and two stories about the most basic facts. When briefed by ACM about the educational facilities, I have been told that kids go to school between, say, 9am and 2 in the afternoon. Then when I talk to the parents and the kids I will be told, "No, no, only 9 to 11". or something like that. What, in reality, are the number of hours which are being taught in detention centres, do you know? What was the active time of engagement between teacher and student?
MS LESNIE: Before you answer that, we have received a submission from the Department of Immigration. I don't know if you have had a chance to look at it?
MS BROSNAN: No.
MS LESNIE: And there are charts at the back that talk about the education activities per facility.
MS BROSNAN: No.
MS LESNIE: And what it says in here is at the crèche/pre-school level there is four hours a day teaching and the average attendance, this is at 31 January, is 22 pre-schoolers.
MS BROSNAN: That is incorrect.
MS LESNIE: At the primary level there is two hours of English, one hour of maths and two hours of art and craft every day, and 45 primary school children attend.
MS BROSNAN: That is incorrect.
MS LESNIE: And then at the secondary level there is three hours of English, one hour of maths, one hour of science and computing, and that 35 attend a day.
MS BROSNAN: That is incorrect.
MS LESNIE: How close is it?
MS BROSNAN: I would say not close.
MRS SULLIVAN: Is it possible that that new regime has occurred because there are different teachers there? I was interested in you saying that you taught SOSE [Studies of Society and Environment]. Now SOSE doesn't get a mention in that list.
MS BROSNAN: No.
MRS SULLIVAN: So is it possible that because of, if you like, the laxity of not having a curriculum that that could in fact be right because of the current teaching staff?
MS BROSNAN: Yes.
MRS SULLIVAN: Or is it not possible?
MS LESNIE: Well it was at 31 January, you were there.
MS BROSNAN: And I was there.
MRS SULLIVAN: My apologies. Right.
MS BROSNAN: I can tell you that it is incorrect information.
MS LESNIE: It also says that there were three teachers there. Is that right?
MS BROSNAN: On 31 January?
MS LESNIE: Well my follow up question to that is, are there three full time teachers there all the time?
MS BROSNAN: No, no. On 31 January this year there may have been three teachers, I would think there were two, but there may have been three. When I first started last August there was one full-time permanent teacher and three contract teachers, similar to us. By the time I left I was the only teacher.
MS LESNIE: In the time that you were there, did you find that the numbers of teachers there was proportionate to the child population or was there a constant ratio, I guess, of teacher to children or … ?
MS BROSNAN: Yes. It seemed to be all a matter of money and it was in proportion to the amount of children present. Last August there were roughly 700 people in the camp. By the time I left in April there were under 200 people and most of the children had been released or sent back to their native countries at that point. There were only about 20 children left in Port Hedland at the beginning of April of this year and hence teachers' numbers declined.
MRS SULLIVAN: No, that is fine. I was going to ask the same thing. So this, in your view, is totally inaccurate as at 31 January?
MS BROSNAN: Yes.
MRS SULLIVAN: Both in the component subjects, the hours a day and the numbers?
MS BROSNAN: Yes, yes.
MRS SULLIVAN: Do you want to give your version of that chart?
MS BROSNAN: If you would like me to.
MRS SULLIVAN: That would be helpful I think.
DR OZDOWSKI: Yes, it would be very helpful.
MS BROSNAN: Could I see that chart so I can just read it?
MRS SULLIVAN: Yes. It is really those three components.
MS BROSNAN: Yes. Thank you. This one? Yes. So let us start with the crèche and pre-school. They were receiving two and a half hours a day, not four hours. They were being instructed by an unqualified detainee.
MS LESNIE: As you are going through this list, could you make a distinction between what happens in the separation area and then the other area?
MS BROSNAN: Well separation is very straightforward. Basically when teaching in separation, the maximum time I spent with any group in there was one hour and a half.
MS LESNIE: And you were the only person who went in there? No pre-school teacher?
MS BROSNAN: No. I am a high school teacher. And really I don't have the skills, or the qualifications, to teach primary school children. I did so.
DR OZDOWSKI: So was there anybody else going, in addition to you?
MS BROSNAN: Yes. There was another teacher who spent more time in separation than I did, because really I couldn't handle it. Her name was [identifying details removed]. And the bulk of her day was spent going to different blocks in isolation. So pre-school, two and a half hours per day at 31 January 2002. Pre-school and crèche was always taken by an unqualified detainee. In fact I would say that the word "crèche" is inappropriate because crèche seems to suggest babies. No child under the age of three was allowed to come into the school compound at any time. Numbers? 22, I am not sure, I can't give you a definite answer there.
Primary level, it says:
Two hours of English, one hour of maths and two hours of arts and craft.
That makes five hours. But school actually only runs for four hours per day. And I can tell you that when I taught in Port Hedland, the Programs Manager, [name removed], who was this ex-Army Programs Manager who was demoted after Christmas, I can tell you he used to come to me and ask me, "Katie, can you just sort of make up there what you are doing. Are you doing life skills?" And I would say, "No". And he said, "Well can you just write down that you are doing an hour or two of life skills per week". Or, "Are you doing maths?", I would say, "Yes". And he would say, "Yes. Okay. We will put down you are doing two hours of maths a day". And I would say, "Well I am not".
MS LESNIE: So you were asked to fabricate information for the purposes of creating this list?
MS BROSNAN: And other lists. I have never seen this list before, I have seen other lists where these, you know, it is wonderful on paper, but it is inaccurate. It is not true. So primary level, I was a primary level teacher in the compound of school. And it says there, "Five hours". Well I taught for four hours a day and I think the children were relatively lucky to have me because I didn't restrict myself to English, maths and arts and craft. I tried to incorporate a number of different subjects, that was purely at my own discretion and other teachers didn't do that so I would say that they were receiving more subject areas than what is stated here for primary level.
For secondary level, it says English, mathematics, science and computing, five hours again. Well, they were only instructed for four hours per day. I do not believe anyone ever received science tuition in the compound while I was there because the teachers were not coming from a science background. And computing - well there were two computers available in the school, but they were only allowed to be accessed after half past two in the afternoon and that meant that only male detainees could access them due to in-house rules about who can come into the school after half past two in the afternoon. So children were not receiving computer lessons. Adults - you are not interested in adults, are you?
DR OZDOWSKI: Yes.
MS BROSNAN: Okay. Adults. Two hours per day in English and then it says:
Numeracy, vocational training, computing and other, nine hours.
That is a mystery. Adult detainees, male adult detainees, did receive two hours of English instruction per day from 3 o'clock to 5 o'clock in the school. "Numeracy", no; "vocational training", perhaps in the kitchen where they are paid $1 an hour to work; "computing", no; "other", who knows?
MS LESNIE: Were there different teachers for the adults then?
MS BROSNAN: No.
MS LESNIE: You were teaching the adults as well?
MS BROSNAN: Yes.
MS LESNIE: You were both teaching the adults?
MS BROSNAN: Male adults only, not females.
MS LESNIE: Why no females?
MS BROSNAN: Well there is a volunteer nun, a Mercy nun who has been working at the centre just about a year now and she was the teacher for female adults. They were taught in a separate area of the compound until recently. I am not sure why there were separated, perhaps it is culture but she would do a bit of teaching, a bit of sewing. And it is just says finally here:
General/life education life skills two hours per day. 80 people are attending.
I cannot comment on that because I do not have any information regarding it. To my knowledge, it did not happen.
MS LESNIE: In terms of separation, there is another part of your submission that I was interested in. You said that before this Inquiry was announced that there were no unaccompanied minors who attended school and that after this Inquiry was announced you were asked to create a separate class for unaccompanied minors.
The first question is: why weren't they attending school beforehand? Was no one encouraging them to? And the second is: why was it necessary to create a separate class for them? Why didn't they join the other kids?
MS BROSNAN: Prior to the Inquiry being announced, I didn't actually know there were unaccompanied minors in the compound. I wasn't aware of that fact. But there definitely was a change in the attitude of ACM and DIMIA when the Inquiry was announced. I could describe it as a mild panic attack and the issue of unaccompanied minors came to the fore. They were strongly encouraged to attend these four hours of schooling every day and these unaccompanied minors are all male, probably ranging between 15 and 18 years of age. Their English would be poor to very poor.
When I got to know them I discovered they are sort of in limbo land because they have essentially been living as adults in single men's quarters, not in the family blocks, with adult males. But inside they are very much children. They didn't feel comfortable going to the so-called high school in the compound. And then we suggested, well, you know, when I realised there were unaccompanied minors I thought, gosh, this is awful, they haven't been receiving any education. So we said: "Well come to the adult classes then, the male adult classes, from 3 to 5 every day".
But they didn't want to do that either. They seemed to be isolated as a group and then because this mild panic attack was taking place, one suggestion - and I don't remember where it came from, was that a separate class would be set up for them every day, from 1 o'clock to half past 2 in the afternoon. And there were three contract teachers present at the time in Port Hedland and we decided we would teach them on a rotation basis because it would mean leaving our own base class to go and teach them.
So we didn't want to leave our own base class every day with an unqualified detainee taking the class. So we said we would rotate it. So we did start to rotate and it worked quite well. And then two teachers - two of us left for a Christmas break and it fell apart.
MS LESNIE: So even at its optimum, it was an hour and a half a day?
MS BROSNAN: Yes. And then in March of this year, maybe late February, March of this year, I had three unaccompanied minors who started to attend my male adult class. I think because they were just desperately bored and wanted something to break up the day. One of these boys had a very bad stutter and when we started this 1 o'clock to half past 2 class, probably late November early December last year, his stutter was so bad and I think for him that was one of the reasons he didn't want to join in one of the big groups.
But after some time he started to feel comfortable in this little class and his stutter started to improve and he gradually became more confident and then when we left for Christmas he was very upset because he thought, oh, I am just starting to make progress and it goes out the window.
MS LESNIE: I want to ask you also about unaccompanied minors. As you may have seen in the submission, the Department of Immigration talks about a case management strategy with unaccompanied minors which - on recollection - the team involved social workers and counsellors. Were you ever asked to make any comments about the progress of children or your observations of the unaccompanied minors in class?
MS BROSNAN: No and after this Inquiry was announced late last year, a weekly meeting between DIMIA and ACM officials was held regarding unaccompanied minors. There was no occasion when we were asked, as teachers, to comment on whether they were attending or not attending or how were they getting on or how were they not getting on. I found it surprising that no teacher was invited to either partake in these meetings, to make suggestions, or simply to comment on what the state of progress was as regards unaccompanied minors.
And the people who were usually at those meetings were the DIMIA personnel and the psychologist from ACM, a child protection - a ‘child liaison officer’ from ACM who has no qualifications in this area and the Programs Manager. The only time I was asked about unaccompanied minors by a DIMIA staff member was when we had a Valentine's Night Disco where this particular male DIMIA staff member was very anxious to know if [an unaccompanied minor] would show up at this disco because Canberra was very eager to get their data on [unaccompanied minors] participating in activities within the compound. That was the only time I was asked directly about [unaccompanied minors].
PROF THOMAS: Can you comment in general about the staff in general? What is their relationship with the children like? You mentioned here that they are often called by numbers instead of names. So do you think that in general their interaction with the children - what is it like?
MS BROSNAN: I think in general their interaction with children is inappropriate. We are talking about children and they seemed to be treated with the mentality of these ACM officials and officers as though it is just like a prison. I mean, they are spoken down to continually. They are called by number continually although I believe this has changed in the past 2 weeks. There has been concerted effort on the part of ACM to now start calling people by name. I don't know. May be Rose, do you want to say anything about that?
MS O'CONNOR: Well basically what you have said. I can't really add to that. I didn't see any incidents of real rudeness from people but it was just a cold kind of - it is difficult to explain. Impersonal type of relationship I would say on the whole. There were a couple of officers that didn't have that and they really stood out for me amongst the rest of the officers and I think that is saying a lot. And they were just relating as you would normally to kids, as you would expect someone to. It was inappropriate.
MS BROSNAN: Yes it is only I think through giving examples that you can illustrate how the officers are towards the children and how the children are towards the officers. You know, there was a Christmas Concert that was held in mid-December and I think some local church groups had donated some nice little presents for the children. And one officer stood up and started to call the children for their presents but called them by their numbers. And the ACM Centre Manager, [name removed], at the time, called this officer aside and said, "Look we have visitors in the centre. You cannot call them by number. Call them by their names". And the officer replied he didn't know what their names were.
So the actual present giving ceremony was abandoned because they weren't aware of the names of the kids. There are many, many examples which I think illustrate the relationship between the officers and the children.
MS O'CONNOR: It is a lack of sensitivity I think in a situation where you have to be particularly sensitive. It is just not there.
MS LESNIE: You both mentioned, in the summaries that you gave us, children with disabilities. I am not sure whether you were talking about the same two children or not but maybe you can talk about what kind of disabilities they had and what was done to cater for those disabilities.
MS O'CONNOR: Okay. I had two in my class and they were just in the class. It was left up to me to set simpler work for them. There were two support detainees in the class that I was teaching in and we just tried to keep them going with very simplified work and quite often the other children would rile the smaller boy as it was very easy to do that and he would jump on tables and start screaming out and run round the classroom. It was very difficult to know what to do, I guess. After a while I developed some techniques. It took time. But it was another area - it was yet another level to deal with in that classroom and the people working with me were untrained. They were very humane and very good with the children, excellent actually, but they weren't trained in any - in that specialist area.
MRS SULLIVAN: Was it physical or intellectual impairment or both?
MS O'CONNOR: Intellectual impairment, yes.
MRS SULLIVAN: Intellectual impairment. So you didn't have any physical impairments?
MS O'CONNOR: No. Did you notice anything of those physically impaired?
MS BROSNAN: I think there is one family [identifying details removed] who [identifying details removed] have a disability and it is an intellectual disability. Their physical co-ordination can be very poor also but it is primarily mental. And to my knowledge they have never been formally assessed. They are now in detention approximately [length of detention removed] and I feel very strongly about this family because these [details removed] kids with disability were, at times, in my class and in Rose's classes other times but they have also been banned from the school in the compound.
COMMISSIONER OZDOWSKI: Because of behavioural difficulties?
MS BROSNAN: Because of behavioural difficulties. They are in a very, very, I think, difficult situation because their mother is, I would say, very depressed and she has attempted suicide on a number of occasions. [identifying details removed]
Their disability has never been formally assessed. After your inquiry was announced late last year, there was another panic attack about this family and there were weekly meetings about this family as well and what was going to be done with them and so on and so forth. And to date they haven't received any special needs education and that is what they need. I am not qualified to teach them. Rose wasn't qualified. No teacher who was present in Port Hedland was qualified to teach these children. We don't even know what is wrong with them so we couldn't even ask people who were qualified for help or assistance to know what is suitable for these - what learning material is suitable for these children?
So I would be very concerned about them. Since April of this year - April May, children have been going out to school in Port Hedland. You have probably heard that - to a Catholic school, and there are now, I think, just 10 children left in the compound. And that is all very nice and I am delighted for the children. It is a much better environment for them to be going out but I would have reservations about it at the same time. To me it just strikes me, there are just 10 children. What if they are back to 120 children? What happens then? Do they all still go out to school?
It is convenient because now you are making your Inquiry because it was a UN visit and I have had phone calls from children where one boy in particular has told me that he loves going out to school so much. He is so happy and he has got his uniform and he is [age removed] years old. And he has five girlfriends in his new school and he loves them all. But when he comes back into the compound at 3 o'clock on the day he starts crying because he is back behind the razor wire again and it is the same. And I think that is, you know, that is tragic and it just strikes me, wonderful they are going out but it is too little too late.
They are being escorted by a man, an officer every day to the school, in his uniform. They are being left at the school without an officer, to my knowledge, which is something positive but it just seems, you know, it seems reactive rather than pro-active because people have spoken out and they are not happy about what is going on. But these [details removed] children with disabilities, they are going out to school, to the Catholic school but there is a contract teacher in the compound who is bringing them to the Catholic school. He is going into a room with them, in the Catholic school, and he is trying to teach them. He has no formal special needs qualifications. So really they are still at square one.
And when you talk about people with intellectual disabilities, I am not a psychiatrist, psychologist or anything, but I would say the children I have seen in Port Hedland all have severe behavioural difficulties.
DR OZDOWSKI: Yes, one more question.
PROF THOMAS: So, in general, what do you think would be the long term impact on these children, in terms of their education?
MS BROSNAN: I think for the children who are there for short periods of time, for three months or less, I think it is manageable. But there are children now in Port Hedland who have been there two years who are not being stimulated, who have come to a halt as regards learning and, you know, school finishes now for these kids at 3 o'clock, say, in the afternoon and then they have the evening. And it is a long evening of nothing. They are watching adults all the time. They are taking on the behaviour of the adults and it goes back to the self-harm instance which people spoke about earlier. They are watching these people as their role models. They are watching their mother, perhaps, trying to hurt herself.
They were picking up very bad language from ACM officers. I mean, they are going around and they are saying, "Fuck you". I mean, where do they learn that? They are not learning it from themselves, they are not learning it from us. Their language is appalling. I thought some of the children were fantastic liars. There was one incident recently where I telephoned the compound and spoke to two young boys and I could hear in the background a female officer, and I know who it was, and she said to one of the boys, "Who are you talking to?" and he ignored her. And the officer continued, "Are you talking to a man or a woman?" and he ignored her. And she said, "Is this telephone call for you?" and then he said, "Mind your own fucking business". This is a 10 year old.
MS O’CONNOR: I would say that is modelled off the older residents' response.
PROF THOMAS: Well, where are they learning the language?
MS O’CONNOR: Yes. The men's response to, in that environment.
MS BROSNAN: Yes. Then he said, "This is a phone call from my father and my father doesn't understand this man on the telephone because this man on the telephone is talking English". You know he just came up with this. And I thought how does this boy know how to tell lies so quickly? I would be concerned about their long term effects but I don't know what they are and I guess none of us will know until into the future.
DR OZDOWSKI: Any other questions?
PROF THOMAS: No, that is all right.
DR OZDOWSKI: I think we will finish. If there is any final statement you would like to make, please do it now.
MS O’CONNOR: I was just going to add to that and say the interrupted learning, I did see evidence of that while I was there, with kids that were there for quite a period of time. They did not seem to be progressing much, because their spoken English, as I mentioned in there, was far in advance of their reading and writing skills, which shows they have been in Australia quite a while, but the reading and writing has not paralleled that. And generally there is a rough kind of parallel, generally I would say.
DR OZDOWSKI: So their oral skills did progress?
MS O’CONNOR: Was ahead of.
DR OZDOWSKI: Ahead of, yes. Yes, I heard that from a number of sources. Yes.
MS O’CONNOR: Yes. The listening, speaking skills.
MS BROSNAN: Yes.
MS O’CONNOR: That was strong evidence for me, with a few of the younger ones in the class particularly. Yes.
DR OZDOWSKI: Thank you. Any final words?
MS BROSNAN: There just may be a few comments. I would have concerns about the family unit in Port Hedland. And I think there is evidence in Port Hedland of families disintegrating, of families who are currently in there, as well as families who have been through the system. And I think one of the basic things is that families cannot cook their own meals. I think sharing a meal with your family is probably one of the most basic things we do together, but they line up. That is one thing. Another thing is about the mental health services available for children in Port Hedland. I think, in my opinion, they are inadequate. They are not easy to access for children and in my submission I have tried to just mention that a few times.
I really strongly believe the fact that the counsellor and psychologists are wearing ACM uniforms, does put up a very strong barrier for the children and adults alike.
MS O’CONNOR: They have an ACM attitude, I would say.
MS BROSNAN: Yes, yes.
MS O’CONNOR: Very much, yes. The one I knew, the main one.
MS BROSNAN: And there are lots and lots of stories one could tell which illustrate points, but suffice to say also that I have contributed to the Amnesty International submission and to the Mercy Order submission as well, if you don't know. And I would be happy to help at a further time if you need assistance.
DR OZDOWSKI: Thank you very much for your submissions and thank you very much for coming and giving the evidence. We may need to get in touch with you later and it may relate to individual cases and especially accuracy of fact. But thank you for your presence and I declare this session closed. Thank you.
ADJOURNED
