Transcript of Hearing - ADELAIDE
Tuesday, 2 July 2002
Please note: This is an edited transcript.
This witness later agreed that his evidence could be made public.
Commissioners:
DR SEV OZDOWSKI, Human Rights Commissioner
MRS ROBIN SULLIVAN, Queensland Children's Commissioner
PROFESSOR TRANG THOMAS, Professor of Psychology, Melbourne Institute of Technology
MS VANESSA LESNIE, Secretary to the Inquiry
CONTINUED FROM PUBLIC HEARING
DR OZDOWSKI: Ladies and gentlemen, I would like now formally to begin
this in camera hearing for the Inquiry into Children in Immigration Detention.
My name is Sev Ozdowski, and I'm a Human Rights Commissioner. To my right,
I have got Professor Trang Thomas. She is a Professor of Psychology at
Royal Melbourne Institute of Technology and on my left is Mrs Robin Sullivan
who is Queensland Children's Commissioner and both of them are Assisting
Commissioners for the purpose of this Inquiry. There is also two people
from Commission Staff; on my left is Ms Vanessa Lesnie who is secretary
to the Inquiry and on my right, Jonathan Hunyor who is our legal counsel.
Now, whatever we will say here will be kept confidential.
A copy of the transcript will be sent to you for correction, but it won't be used for distribution to any other people or authorities. We also won't quote directly from what you say but we will use your evidence to inform the ... issues in the context of the report, and we will use it also to question further Immigration and so on but without any attributions to you. The status of statutory declaration you provided us with is about the same. If we would like to use something in a way which may identify you, we will come to you and clear it with you and we won't do it without your permission.
MR ALLAN JOHN CLIFTON, sworn [12.32pm]
Ex-Operations Manager, Woomera
DR OZDOWSKI: Could I ask you maybe to give your name, address, qualifications
and capacity in which you are appearing, for the record, and also I would
like to ask the gentleman who is sitting next to you to introduce himself
as well.
MR CLIFTON: My name is Allan John Clifton. My current address is [address deleted]. I was the operations manager at Woomera for a period of 16 months from early 2000 up until July 2001. From there, I went to Perth as a civil manager, spent a few weeks at Christmas Island over the Christmas just passed. I've been off work now since March this year. I've been diagnosed as suffering from Post Traumatic Stress Disorder and major depression, currently being treated for that illness. My background is basically prisons in Victoria, both government and private.
DR OZDOWSKI: Mr Clifton, could I ask your companion to introduce himself?
MR TUCKFIELD: Certainly. My name is Brian Tuckfield. I work as a clinical psychologist for the University of Adelaide Department of Psychiatry and in private practice and I specialise in the treatment of Post Traumatic Stress Disorder and I've been asked to attend today to support Mr Clifton and be with him during this and after.
DR OZDOWSKI: Thank you very much. Mr Clifton, what I would like to start with, considering your experience with prisons, and also considerable experience with detention centres, could you tell me really what is the difference between these two forms of keeping people in enclosure?
MR CLIFTON: There's a number of differences. In prisons I was dealing with male prisoners and I was dealing with a clientele that came into prison because they have been convicted of whatever crime and they knew how long they were going to be there, 18 months, 10 years or life. They knew when they came in when they would get out again, approximately when they would get out depending on a number of issues, and because of that you could help them achieve certain goals in prison, that is, education and recreation and other activities, and you could sort of prepare them for when they were released, knowing when that release date was.
In detention you had to deal also with women and children and we weren't trained for that. We were used to dealing with a male clientele. Of course, in detention, detainees come in and they do not know when they are going to get out, and I would say that in all the prisons I worked at in Victoria, maximum, medium and minimum, which included open camps, the conditions there for the prisoners were far better than what they were at Woomera for the detainees. Things like having to queue up that long line out the door just to receive a meal, having to use communal showers and toilets. Like, in prisons I've worked at, prisoners in their cells had their own toilet and their own shower, had their own facilities, so yes, dehumanising. I've never yet in all my time in prisons had a prisoner tell me that he felt dehumanised by having to be there. They knew why they were there. I've had a number of detainees tell me that they were basically, you know, they were dehumanised and they were treated, I guess, a little bit like cattle, you know.
DR OZDOWSKI: Yes, it is the number of prisoners as well, and I must say if I would have a choice, I would prefer to be in a prison …
MR CLIFTON: Yes.
DR OZDOWSKI: …than a detention centre, there is no question about it, but tell me one little thing, why toilets are not cleaned by ACM, why toilets are left to the detainees and so on?
MR CLIFTON: Comes down to it's cheaper to get the detainees to clean the toilets rather than bring private contractors in and that's something that we spoke about at Woomera during my time quite a lot, you know, the state that the toilets and the shower blocks got into and that we should bring private contractors in to do the cleaning, but it always came down to the cost.
DR OZDOWSKI: It's that simple, yes?
MR CLIFTON: Yes, it's that simple.
DR OZDOWSKI: That simple. Now looking at the structure of your organisation…
MR CLIFTON: Yes.
DR OZDOWSKI: …let us start, yes, in terms of who was responsible for what? Did you have autonomy when running the Woomera Detention Centre or other detention centres, or were the ACM headquarters basically involved with daily activities of what was happening?
MR CLIFTON: You had a certain amount of autonomy if things appeared to be okay and then if there's a situation or some, or we had evidence that something may happen, head office would want to jump in. The problem with that is that because they were so far removed…
DR OZDOWSKI: Didn't know?
MR CLIFTON: …they did not have a feel for what was happening on the ground and they would come in and make bad decisions, or they would try and direct you to do things that you knew wouldn't work, and there would be the safety and security of detainees plus the staff to consider, but they didn't always consider that. They just wanted that end result regardless, and that caused a lot of arguments.
DR OZDOWSKI: And I understand from your declarations that this contributed clearly to the riots in August 2000?
MR CLIFTON: It did, it did, it is something that's always - I remember quite clearly. It still worries me quite a lot because I am convinced - I hope other people will support me on this - that that riot did not have to happen, it did not have to happen and I've mentioned it in my submission that it could have been avoided. We did a lot of work to get to where we could avoid it but there were some people who had been put in Sierra, as it was called at that time, that we knew shouldn't have been there, but that happens in a general clean-up of things and I knew that they were innocent, and I also knew that we had a number of people that were responsible for certain things and so did the detainees. And incidentally, one of those people left there because they believed they had done something wrong and it should be investigated. They wanted the innocent ones out and I was - you have read what I said. I won't use the language that I was - that was given to me but it was basically just take them on.
DR OZDOWSKI: How cost conscious were the headquarters?
MR CLIFTON: Very cost conscious, that's a…
DR OZDOWSKI: Very cost conscious.
MR CLIFTON: As you are quite aware, sir, it's a private company and the bottom line is always how many dollars you are making, so…
DR OZDOWSKI: I'm being told by detainees that, whenever I go and visit different centres, and from time to time I do it, that new things are appearing.
MR CLIFTON: Yes.
DR OZDOWSKI: So things do change and quite often it is amusing when we are asking when it started, and in other words that started, we are told two weeks here, so ten days. Could you describe a bit what is happening when visits like ours come here?
MR CLIFTON: I was at Woomera for your first visit.
DR OZDOWSKI: That is correct.
MR CLIFTON: And of course, I felt in those days we reined it fairly well, and of course head office panics and they want things covered up that they are not happy about, and so did DIMIA. So a bit of money is spent and, ‘Let's pretty the place up, let's point the visitors in the right direction, get them to talk to this group, keep them away from that group, introduce a whole range of activities, extra activities, just tart the place up a little bit’. Staff are told to be on their best behaviour, what they can say, what they can't say and so you …
DR OZDOWSKI: Who pays for it? It is ACM?
MR CLIFTON: It is ACM.
DR OZDOWSKI: ACM. It is not DIMIA?
MR CLIFTON: It is not DIMIA but DIMIA are in there sort of working with the ACM hierarchy, directing, yes.
MS LESNIE: What are the sorts of things that the staff might be told not to say to people like us?
MR CLIFTON: That the detainees are extremely well treated, that there's a whole range of programs, and some of those programs are non-existent. That education is far better than what it is. They'll have special classes set up so that you were steered into that and I remember it happening in that particular classroom and …
DR OZDOWSKI: Yes, you were rushing me in.
MR CLIFTON: Yes, I didn't like it but I'd been instructed to do it. But the teachers are told what to say, the program staff are told what to say and it's, ‘make it feel really good’. ‘This is a really happy place and the kids are well looked after and the mothers are well looked after’ and you will remember the medical centre, how totally inadequate that area was. There were some good staff in there but they were rehearsed as well, so yes, very high pressure, very high pressure, and you were also threatened that if it does not go well then you will pay for it. Heads will roll.
DR OZDOWSKI: The heads, they will roll if it does not?
MR CLIFTON: If it does not go well and if we don't get a good report.
DR OZDOWSKI: And people know about it?
MR CLIFTON: Yes, yes.
MS LESNIE: Did heads ever roll?
MR CLIFTON: Came very close on a couple of things. I think we considered that your visit was successful, but on a couple of occasions …
MS LESNIE: Does that mean that we were duped?
MR CLIFTON: Yes. Yes, you were duped, as you would have been duped during your visit last week and I know you were because I still talk - I live in that town and still talk to people.
DR OZDOWSKI: Let us put it this way. The second time we were more experienced.
MR CLIFTON: Yes, I'm sure you were.
DR OZDOWSKI: And let us put it this way, that certainly we were not convinced about a whole range of statements which were made, yes, especially even with close analysis, but anyhow you will see our report.
MR CLIFTON: Yes.
MS LESNIE: What sort of things do you think we didn't see in the visit while you were there that we should have seen?
MR CLIFTON: You did not see the sub-standard accommodation.
MRS SULLIVAN: There were different levels of accommodation at the centre?
MR CLIFTON: Yes, I mean, the areas that you would have been sent into would have been prettied up. You didn't - you weren't taken down the back - along the back fence there and shown the accommodation down there of course, that was very much sub-standard.
DR OZDOWSKI: People are still living there now?
MR CLIFTON: Still - I am talking about the main compound.
DR OZDOWSKI: Main compound?
MR CLIFTON: I think at the moment they are in the Mike and November compounds but from what I hear due to various incidents that have happened there that accommodation has now been ripped apart basically. You might have been steered into some nice rooms but on the whole that accommodation is in a real mess.
DR OZDOWSKI: In talking about food…
MR CLIFTON: Yes.
DR OZDOWSKI: Usually we are told how good food is and so on, what is your experience of food?
MR CLIFTON: Okay, when I first started at Woomera the food was prepared by a firm called [name removed]. They had the contract and the food was atrocious. It was - I wouldn't have eaten it myself.
DR OZDOWSKI: ACM didn't eat the food prepared for detainees?
MR CLIFTON: No.
DR OZDOWSKI: No?
MR CLIFTON: No, they didn't, and it caused quite a few problems and you know there was no culturally prepared food for the different nationalities there and it was slop, it was absolute slop. And the kitchen - the original kitchen was a real nightmare, it was a real mess, and it caused a lot of problems and I started what we called "food meetings" where we would get elected detainees and sit down with the on-site manager of [name removed] and try thrashing these problems out. It did improve it and then they decided to do away with it and take it over themselves.
Even at the end it still wasn't really good and the conditions in the kitchen definitely were not hygienic until they built that new kitchen. Well, they re-hashed the old kitchen of course. From what I hear now, the conditions in that kitchen are now worse than what they were with [name removed]. It was probably prettied up for your visit, but talking to people that actually work in the kitchen and also staff, operational staff, they say the food now has gone back to what it was two years.
DR OZDOWSKI: Kids were especially critical of foods?
MR CLIFTON: Yes.
DR OZDOWSKI: Did you ever get in special foods for kids?
MR CLIFTON: We tried to get special food for kids because the kids were just sort of given what the adults - to eat what the adults were eating. So they tried to appease the children by giving them just sweet biscuits and orange sort of cordial to take their mind off it, but it was no good.
DR OZDOWSKI: It has never really worked?
MR CLIFTON: Never really worked, yes.
DR OZDOWSKI: Cost possibly was again …
MR CLIFTON: Once again it is a bottom line. I mean, the catering area - the kitchen area - has a specific budget allocated to it. The thing I have found as the Operational Manager, and more so as the Centre Manager, that you are given a budget for each area and it is never enough anyway, just nowhere near enough.
MRS SULLIVAN: Can you move items across that budget or are they fixed?
MR CLIFTON: Pretty much fixed.
MRS SULLIVAN: They are fixed centrally?
MR CLIFTON: Yes, if I can give an example, my food budget at Perth was equated to, I think it was, $4 per detainee per day and that had been like that for four years and of course…
DR OZDOWSKI: Is that $4?
MR CLIFTON: My costs had gone up.
MRS SULLIVAN: That is for three meals a day?
MR CLIFTON: Yes, my costs had gone up, of course, and we argued this point with head office because I could never come in on budget for the kitchen, you know, because of that cost and so I will be honest, you get threatened to do something about it so you just had to make it look a little bit better because I was - I am of the belief that detainees are getting three good meals a day so that takes care of the - that part of the problem, it makes them a lot happier in that area. So, yes.
DR OZDOWSKI: When - just going back, when we were visiting the centres, would you be reporting at the end what we said, what we did and so on, to ACM?
MR CLIFTON: Yes, the centre manager would have to write a fairly comprehensive report. There would be a debriefing amongst all of the senior management staff afterwards.
DR OZDOWSKI: So for example, there was a situation in Port Hedland where a junior ACM officer was sitting outside the door of our meeting and what we saw was she was taking notes?
MR CLIFTON: Yes, that would happen.
DR OZDOWSKI: When I approached her she told me that she was only doing her job. So it is feasible that she was under instruction in a way to record that?
MR CLIFTON: She would have been under instruction from the Centre Manager to take notes and I think at Woomera their notes were actually taken inside the conference room when we had a meeting with you, and then someone would follow us around as we went out and did the tour, be taking the notes as well.
DR OZDOWSKI: Would you put any listening devices to the places we were…
MR CLIFTON: Sorry?
DR OZDOWSKI: Would you put any listening devices to the places we were taken to?
MR CLIFTON: We didn't put any listening devices but I heard that they are in place now these listening devices yes.
DR OZDOWSKI: I see, so whatever we say in the room could basically be listened to…
MR CLIFTON: Could be listened to.
DR OZDOWSKI: …by a certain party. What about your interpreters? Interpreters were possibly reporting to you as well?
MR CLIFTON: They would be but I must admit - say that in support of the interpreters up there, when I was there and in particular [name removed] and [name removed] who you would have met are very, very good.
DR OZDOWSKI: So they would have high ethics in their profession?
MR CLIFTON: Yes, those two gentlemen and also other people that worked in that area when I was there had high ethics, but I heard that that is, you know, slipping backwards.
DR OZDOWSKI: Now why are you insisting as an organisation that even professionals wear uniforms? I do not know how, for example, a psychologist counselling in the centre could be wearing a uniform or…
MR CLIFTON: I really can't see the need for them to have to wear a uniform.
DR OZDOWSKI: Why do you do it, why…?
MR CLIFTON: It is just ACM's culture, it is what is directed from head office, that all staff are to look the same.
DR OZDOWSKI: The culture brought in from prisons or…
MR CLIFTON: No, it is - some of the ACM - when I worked at Fulham some of the counsellors and psychologists and staff didn't wear a uniform, it was their choice, basically, if they wanted to or not. Quite often they just wore street clothes and I think that is better for interacting with detainees, especially children. I mean…
DR OZDOWSKI: Yes, exactly, school teachers.
MR CLIFTON: You want these people who have problems to trust you, and if they have got to sit down with someone who is wearing a uniform and they have just been dealing with an officer who has had a uniform they are not going to relax and they are not going to get that trust to build up. There is really no need for it as long as someone has got an ID on so that someone can identify you, they should be there.
DR OZDOWSKI: Yes.
MR CLIFTON: Yes.
DR OZDOWSKI: Considering in a way the time limitation it is so good to talk to you that straight, but let us - we will come to children later. Let us come now to the relationship between you and DIMIA. Who is in charge because we do get very different impressions as we go around the country?
MR CLIFTON: Okay, part of the Business Manager's role on a day to day basis is to look at what ACM are doing. I mean, ACM has got the contract to perform a certain range of services so - and ACM has to report verbally and in writing in monthly reports, daily reports, weekly reports, monthly reports, to the DIMIA Business Manager and also to Canberra as well. So part of the DIMIA Business Manager’s job is to oversee what is happening on a day to day basis. At Woomera, as in all other centres, we would have a morning meeting, we used to call it "morning prayers". The DIMIA manager was part of that, but I must say that if there was stuff that we needed to discuss it would happen after he left.
DR OZDOWSKI: It was the culture of your place or a similar culture to that which exists in different places?
MR CLIFTON: That culture exists in all detention centres.
DR OZDOWSKI: Because for example, going to Curtin, yes, my impression was that the DIMIA man was really in charge of everything that was going on there.
MR CLIFTON: That is - yes, I guess some centres do have that impression. I think we were lucky at Woomera in the early days, that myself and the DIMIA Business Manager, even though he was the boss so to speak, but we had a very close working relationship. So we had a pro-active relationship.
DR OZDOWSKI: Who was then the manager?
MR CLIFTON: [Name removed]. We had a very pro-active relationship. We met several times a day. We discussed things and stopped problems from arising and, you know, I never forgot that they were paying the bills but we had a more productive rather than an ‘us and them’. And in Curtin that did happen. It was, you know, we were in this centre and you will do what we say. So that …
MRS SULLIVAN: What about Perth?
MR CLIFTON: There were two masters to obey, head office plus DIMIA.
MRS SULLIVAN: Sorry, what about Perth? You say you also have experience there?
MR CLIFTON: Perth was pretty good. Once - I believe in trying to foster a good relationship. When I went to Perth, Perth had just picked up a new Business Manager who didn't really know a lot so that was ideal for me because I found it - because I knew a bit more than he did. We could work together and I could explain the way things happened and we had a good relationship. I spent a lot of time in his office and vice-versa and I would, of course, sound things off him, of course. If I wanted to run a different program I’d go and talk to him and yes, we had a good two-way thing going.
DR OZDOWSKI: When it was coming to a really difficult situation when you had a riot, a hunger strike or somebody cutting themselves, who would really take the final decision because, yes, the media would get involved, the Minister?
MR CLIFTON: ACM would take the final decision, find it often with DIMIA and then say, ‘This is what we are paying you for, now you go out and do it’ and …
DR OZDOWSKI: Then the Minister would have to either publicly pay for whatever outcome you would come up with?
MR CLIFTON: Yes, as he often has and it has been a bad outcome, yes. The way that I would try and run it though was that, yes, okay, we were contracted to provide that service and we had to put certain things in place and go and do the hard yards but I would still run it past [the Department Manager] first, I would say, ‘Do you think this is …’
DR OZDOWSKI: The Minister never attacked you, usually it was …
MR CLIFTON: The Minister actually supported us quite well.
DR OZDOWSKI: Yes, exactly.
MR CLIFTON: Even when things might not have been so good, he did support us.
DR OZDOWSKI: In a way our visit at this point of time, when tenders are being considered for extension or contracts, must be extremely sensitive for you guys, ACM people?
MR CLIFTON: Very, very sensitive. I mean, the Managing Director made no secret to his senior staff, myself included, in February this year in Sydney, that they intended to win this contract at whatever cost so, yes, we were warned that there would be a number of visits from high profile organisations and people such as yourself, and that we were to bend over backwards to accommodate. We weren't given any extra resources to do this, of course, but we just had to do it at whatever cost, fudging the figures.
DR OZDOWSKI: So when I see all this, for example, new plants put in or some little things here and there …
MR CLIFTON: Yes, yes, yes.
DR OZDOWSKI: … it means it needs to come out of a budget somewhere and possibly it will come out of food or something like that?
MR CLIFTON: Yes, yes, yes. Or you might be lucky, they might give you $2000 to do something with but yes, as you would see, the plants are new they are not established.
DR OZDOWSKI: Yes, yes, they were just put in the ground.
MR CLIFTON: The food is really good but they got a little bit smart in the end I guess and so instead of making the food good on that day, it may have been made good for four or five days beforehand.
DR OZDOWSKI: Yes, because usually I eat food jointly with people …
MR CLIFTON: Yes, yes.
DR OZDOWSKI: … and so far what I have seen here - I certainly wouldn't like to pay for this kind of food in a restaurant, but it is edible.
MR CLIFTON: Yes, and you would also have seen probably that the detainees were not used to staff sitting down and eating with them.
DR OZDOWSKI: Yes, yes.
MR CLIFTON: A lot of …
DR OZDOWSKI: You ask a question?
MS LESNIE: Yes. You say in your statement that you are aware of some penalties that were imposed by DIMIA on ACM.
MR CLIFTON: Yes, yes.
MS LESNIE: What sort of things would DIMIA impose a penalty on ACM for?
MR CLIFTON: If they thought that - it was divided into all areas, we call it KPIs, Key Performance Indicators. SDO, special Service Delivery Outcomes and break it down into, you know, your security programs, education, medical and so on and so forth, so each area would be targeted.
For example, if you had a number of escapes, there would be a certain penalty imposed per detainee that escaped, a financial penalty. If they believed that there were not enough program hours delivered there would be penalties. Medical, if they believed there were problems with medical, or if they believed the problem is with security.
And what that led to, because we were never ever given enough resources both financially, staffing wise and whatever, the figures had to be fudged and I used to make a big issue about this because I don't believe that it is the way to do things. I think the main area where the figures were fudged was in programs. There were fantastic figures pumped up and especially more so for visits.
DR OZDOWSKI: Yes.
MR CLIFTON: If you look behind them there was not a lot of substance, it was just figures.
DR OZDOWSKI: Did you see the submission from the Department of Immigration?
MR CLIFTON: I had the opportunity to flick through it a couple of days ago and yes.
DR OZDOWSKI: Is it a fiction?
MR CLIFTON: Fiction, I would have used another word, sir, but it is fiction.
MRS SULLIVAN: Is there a one size fits all set of KPIs or is it - are the contracts done on an individual basis?
MR CLIFTON: You mean for the Centres?
MRS SULLIVAN: Yes.
MR CLIFTON: Basically it is a one size fits all.
MRS SULLIVAN: Because we have observed some different practices in different Centres.
MR CLIFTON: A good Centre Manager will recognise where something needs to be improved and do something about it. When I went to Perth, for example, there was no emergency procedures manual in place and the place had been open for almost four years contractual obligation to have that so I had to - I re-wrote one and made it suit Perth and since then they have picked it up and tried to make it fit other centres. There is no operations manual. It was - that worked with Perth.
DR OZDOWSKI: Talking about manuals, we were told that when an emergency happens in Woomera, when there is a riot, strike, whatever…
MR CLIFTON: Yes.
DR OZDOWSKI: … that the manual is saying that children should be taken away and put into secure places. Do you remember this page in the manual?
MR CLIFTON: No, I don't. Did you get to read it?
DR OZDOWSKI: Well, I asked to see it and it wasn't provided …
MR CLIFTON: I can tell you now …
DR OZDOWSKI: … so maybe they are writing it now?
MR CLIFTON: I can tell you now it doesn't exist.
DR OZDOWSKI: Yes, yes, but was it a policy of ACM that, if you have riots or whatever, you try to secure children?
MR CLIFTON: When I was there it wasn't. I remember when orders were given to use gas that I said gas should not be used because we have women and children. That was on a couple of occasions, it was overridden but I said to them, the staff that were dispensing gas, ‘Don't aim it at women and children, you know, try and keep them safe’. Because children would be running around out of control, screaming. You know, it was very traumatic for them and to start throwing gas in as well…
DR OZDOWSKI: Do you have any - we heard so much - not so much in Woomera but in other centres, that you have some kind of electrified batons, some kind of …
MR CLIFTON: Cattle prods.
DR OZDOWSKI: … cattle prods or some of your batons discharge some electricity?
MR CLIFTON: No, no.
DR OZDOWSKI: No.
MR CLIFTON: No, we have fixed batons and they have the ASP batons extendables that you flick out and they extend.
DR OZDOWSKI: They do not have any electric charge or something like that?
MR CLIFTON: No.
DR OZDOWSKI: As far as you know, no. And another thing, the use of chemical restraints. Would you - how often would you use it and in what circumstances would you use it?
MR CLIFTON: It only got used on a couple of occasions that Woomera had, and it was basically to pacify someone because…
DR OZDOWSKI: Yes.
MR CLIFTON: …they were at risk to themself.
DR OZDOWSKI: Yes, or destroying property or something like that?
MR CLIFTON: Yes, and you needed to give them something that would just pacify them. It wasn't - I made sure it wasn't overused but my main concern at that time if we had to use that was that it was used basically as a last resort because this person was going to do some damage to themselves.
DR OZDOWSKI: Yes, but was it used after a so-called doctor's prescription or you just didn't have time because it was an operational situation?
MR CLIFTON: Didn't have time, especially in some of the stuff I was involved in after August, we didn't use it in August.
DR OZDOWSKI: So you had to use it and then eventually go to a doctor and say …
MR CLIFTON: Often - I can't remember it being used during a riot. These were more isolated incidents where someone had been up on a roof. I remember one guy that was up in a tree and it took me four hours to get him down. Even when he got down he really wanted to hurt himself.
DR OZDOWSKI: He was so upset, yes?
MR CLIFTON: Yes, yes.
MRS SULLIVAN: What about sedation, generally to keep the general population sort of pacified? Was there any use of sedation?
MR CLIFTON: Not really. I believe that there is probably over-use of some prescription medication, there wasn't enough control over the dispensing of it, and as a result detainees were able to hoard Panadeine Forte and stuff like that. Fair enough, you get Woomera now you get [the doctor] from the hospital. He has been there for some time and he is very much aware of the danger, and he keeps a very tight control on prescription medication, yes.
DR OZDOWSKI: So you didn't add any sedatives to foods in general to keep them …
MR CLIFTON: No, to be honest, I have never seen sedatives added to food, never.
MS LESNIE: Sorry, in the - going back to the sort of standards that you would use to determine your reaction to whatever event, did you ever use the Immigration Detention Standards as a guide to that? Have you ever heard of the Immigration Detention Standards?
MR CLIFTON: Yes, yes, I have read them. If we had an incident - well, most incidents we knew were going to happen, we might have had time during that incident, and I quote the June riot in June 2001 where the detainees controlled the main compound and we had to go in and take it back. Okay, we had time to sit down and write an operational order or SMEACC, do you know what that is? Yes, and we would be - for those that don't; Situation, Mission, Execution, Administration, Command, Control.
It is a way of preparing for a major operation, briefing all the staff, and that would be done using Immigration Detention Standards, when I was there, as a guideline, and also our Emergency Procedures Manual. At the briefing for that I would include the DIMIA Business Manager to be present at the briefing to read the operational order and to sign off on it as well so he was part of that. Even though they were saying, ‘This is part of your job, you go and do it’, I would want to make sure that they were happy with what we were about to do, yes.
MS LESNIE: Is it fair to say that they had some influence over (a) the writing and (b) the execution of operational policies? The Immigration Detention Standards.
MR CLIFTON: Yes, they had some…
DR OZDOWSKI: Part of the contract.
MR CLIFTON: Part of it I guess you would be making sure that you work within those guidelines wherever possible, sometimes the situation may change that dramatically that you just could not physically do that. But on the whole yes, you would try and work within those guidelines, yes. That was the way I worked anyway.
DR OZDOWSKI: Mr Clifton, maybe let us move to children.
MR CLIFTON: Yes.
DR OZDOWSKI: Maybe I will ask my assistant Commissioners; do you have any questions about this, of a general nature, of the relationship between DIMIA, between headquarters and the ACM locally? No.
PROF THOMAS: I was just surprised at the escape recently that happened.
MR CLIFTON: Yes.
PROF THOMAS: It happened so easily. What is your view about the security of the place?
MR CLIFTON: There is - okay, I won't mention names, but the Centre Manager and the Operations Manager are not used to working in detention centres. They have really no idea of detention security. The staff are completely demoralised at this point in time. They have not supported the staff in a long, long time and it is a really ‘I don't care’ attitude any more. Coupled with that, most of the permanent staff have now left and the place is - the centre is basically staffed with people that have come from Port Augusta. I am not saying there is anything wrong with Port Augusta but they are casuals that come from Port Augusta. They have been pushed through a condensed training program for four weeks.
During those four weeks they have to work six by twelve hour days per week and that is the way that they have trained them and then they throw them in there. The training is totally inadequate. When I was in Perth I got some of those people that have been trained like that, and when I got them into Perth I just completely retrained them because they just had no idea, it was just all crammed in. As you can imagine, six twelve hour days per week trying to absorb all this stuff that they had never heard of before.
DR OZDOWSKI: So…
MR CLIFTON: That security - they didn't have enough time to talk or do much with security, so yes.
DR OZDOWSKI: So basically it is the situation of the publicity and so on, it is impacting on staff as well, yes, they…
MR CLIFTON: Of course, of course.
DR OZDOWSKI: It is not only detainees who are getting disheartened or sick in terms of their mental health but also it is impacting, I see, on everyone who is there.
MR CLIFTON: Staff, I must say, I want to raise this point that staff have, in the last twelve months, staff are being asked to do things that they are not comfortable with and that is to use batons on detainees. It doesn't matter whether they are male, female or children, that is to - during the Easter riots, for example, this was not made public, of course, but women were put on the ground and their wrists were cuffed to their ankles because they believed that the women were causing problems. So they were left laying on the ground trussed up. It didn't matter that the kids were screaming because their mother was on the ground, that is what was happening.
DR OZDOWSKI: So what they put…?
MR CLIFTON: They put those flexi-cuffs - you would have seen flexi-cuffs.
DR OZDOWSKI: Yes, on…
MR CLIFTON: You cuff your wrist to your ankle.
DR OZDOWSKI: I see, so you need to sit on the ground.
MR CLIFTON: Or lay on the ground.
DR OZDOWSKI: For what length? And it was the protection of children so you say?
MR CLIFTON: No, not to protect children, because they thought the women were going to cause a problem, or they might have been yelling and screaming as you would be doing if you were caught up in something, and so it was cuff them and throw them on the ground and their kids were just left to run around. Now, I know that a lot of staff were extremely traumatised by what they witnessed and not only by what they witnessed but what they were directed to do.
MRS SULLIVAN: Have they been directed to do anything in relation to children and young people that is new or different?
MR CLIFTON: Well, it is not the way we used to operate, I guess.
MRS SULLIVAN: You mention the example of women, I just wonder whether there was any in relation to children and young people that is a new or different strategy that was used?
MR CLIFTON: I can quote an example that happened, I think it was late last year, I wasn't there, I was in Perth, but there were some - there was a group, a small group, of unaccompanied minors that - because they weren't being managed properly, no-one was communicating with them, were playing up, I guess, they had had enough and they refused to move from the compound and staff – the Centre Manager wrote an operational order where it was directed that staff were to go in and move these people and use force and use batons on them and use gas if they had to, and that was something that we would never have done. We wouldn't have written a specific operational order to deal with children.
MRS SULLIVAN: Yes.
MR CLIFTON: Especially unaccompanied minors.
DR OZDOWSKI: Yes, so batons, what you are saying, are used now more on a regular basis?
MR CLIFTON: A regular basis.
DR OZDOWSKI: … to keep the order, and you can get bashed really by accident if you are in the wrong place or something like that?
MR CLIFTON: Yes, during that Easter stuff, I mean, the public sees what was happening outside, you know, and the attacks on the fence, of course, but what they don't know was what was happening behind the scenes.
DR OZDOWSKI: What was happening behind the scenes?
MR CLIFTON: That was where detainees were just getting bashed. You always will have in these places a small minority of staff that will feed on that sort of thing.
DR OZDOWSKI: Yes.
MR CLIFTON: That you actually - when it was all over, of course, I guess they feel some burden so they talk about it, they brag about it to someone. Some of them brag about it.
DR OZDOWSKI: Debrief themselves, in a way to ease it?
MR CLIFTON: Yes.
MRS SULLIVAN: What about in general the relationship between the officers and the kids?
MR CLIFTON: When I was at Woomera we had a large number of kids. In general that relationship was good and you would see staff that came out of prisons and weren't used to working with them and some of them were hardened staff. You were - one of the pleasing things was you would see some of these people, and I am talking about males and females, that would get really soft with the kids and they would go out of their way to help the kids and they would play with them, you know, sometimes they were criticised. I did - I supported that and encouraged that but on the whole, in those days, the relationship was pretty good given that we didn't have any other resources to help these kids, yes, it was pretty good, that relationship was …
DR OZDOWSKI: I didn't see this time.
MR CLIFTON: Sorry?
DR OZDOWSKI: I didn't see this time. This time it was …
MR CLIFTON: No, you might have seen it last time.
DR OZDOWSKI: Yes.
MR CLIFTON: No, you would not have seen it this time.
DR OZDOWSKI: No, this time it was clearly - it was possibly the only centre where the aggro between kids and ACM officers was that high.
MR CLIFTON: That centre has been badly managed now for longer than twelve months and the [person] that just recently left there is the same [person] who said to me during the August riot …
DR OZDOWSKI: ‘Do it’?
MR CLIFTON: ‘Do it’.
MS LESNIE: There have been some allegations by former staff that their contracts were not renewed because they were getting too friendly with the detainees.
MR CLIFTON: Yes, yes, I have heard that, yes.
MS LESNIE: Is that possible?
MR CLIFTON: There has been a lot of - because people's contracts have been coming up for renewal, and they have been re-employing people just on three month contracts and generally messing people around, there has been a lot of pressure. Because of that it has made it very competitive and there is a lot of pressure and intimidation, ‘Don't get too friendly or you won't get your contract renewed’, and, ‘Don't do this or you won't get your contract renewed’.
DR OZDOWSKI: Because less of you are needed yes?
MR CLIFTON: Yes, yes.
DR OZDOWSKI: Less detainees are there so …
MR CLIFTON: Yes.
MS LESNIE: What would be the reason for not having staff be friendly with detainees?
MR CLIFTON: Well, I personally couldn't think of any good reason, because I think if staff are friendly with detainees, as long as everything is legal, you are going to have happier detainees. I think it just becomes a management tool gone wrong where it has been turned around and used against the staff, ‘We don't want you because you have been playing with those kids or sitting down on the ground and talking to those people, so you must be doing something wrong’. A lot of mistrust now. As I said, people are competing to, you know, keep a contract.
DR OZDOWSKI: What was also interesting that I think was for the first time ever, when you met individuals, not of your official name but of individuals, they were giving us much more of a story which was, I think, agreeing very much with your assessment of the present situation at Woomera.
Now, coming to kids. School looks to me like a fiction. Is it true that basically nothing is happening there?
MR CLIFTON: It is a fiction. For a short period of time I think it almost worked. It probably worked more with the UAMs because we really - when I was there I put some things in place to protect those UAMs, and part of that was to make sure that they went to school each day, and I had officers that were tasked especially to look after them and they made sure that they got up, had their breakfast and got up to five hours schooling per day. We also had a curfew at night to keep them safe as well. It worked with the UAMs for a short period of time, it wasn't made compulsory for any other kids but it was - look it wasn't service delivery - the service delivery wasn't there anyway so it is pretty much a fiction.
DR OZDOWSKI: What about the use of playgrounds or use of other recreational facilities, because we were taken to a few plasticky things but we never saw a kid using them?
MR CLIFTON: When I first started there was half a playground up in the main compound, we had another complete playground which had been donated by an organisation in Woomera. We tried to get it put up, but ACM said there was a liability if someone hurt themselves so they wouldn't let them up.
When they started building - like in November - compounds there were big plans to have playgrounds and grassed areas in place and it didn't happen because of the costs. They could never agree on how much it should cost or how much money should be spent and I remember arguing with them several times, and I wasn't the only one. The Centre Manager at the time was arguing as well, and program staff were arguing, but it didn't happen.
MRS SULLIVAN: Were you there when there was an offer by the Catholic priest to allow the kids to go to the Catholic school?
MR CLIFTON: No, that was after my time but yeah, well, actually they did go to the Catholic school in Woomera for a period of time.
MRS SULLIVAN: Yeah, you weren't involved in those associations?
MR CLIFTON: No, no I wasn't involved in that, no, no.
MRS SULLIVAN: Do you recall any occasions when professionals recommended certain courses of action, say going to a specialist or something like that?
MR CLIFTON: Yeah, yeah.
MRS SULLIVAN: And it was knocked back for financial reasons?
MR CLIFTON: It was knocked back for - it was always knocked back for financial reasons but we would - locally we would try and do the best we could but yeah, it was basically knocked back. There was - I can remember being severely criticised and threatened with dismissal because - for calling in an ambulance to get someone presented with a problem that we couldn't treat there. They had symptoms that we couldn't treat or get them into hospital because - it was threatened because of the cost.
DR OZDOWSKI: Who pays for medical treatment, because sometimes we are told that Immigration is paying for everything, sometimes we are told that it is ACM? How does it work?
MR CLIFTON: No, no, on day-to-day medical treatment, or for run of the mill things for going to hospital, that will be an ACM thing. If someone has to be moved to …
DR OZDOWSKI: To hospital, say to Adelaide for an operation?
MR CLIFTON: … a hospital in Adelaide, usually it would be ACM but it involves the Royal Flying Doctor and extra costs as well. Then the arguments would start about who is going to pay, yeah.
DR OZDOWSKI: So you have to pay most of it?
MR CLIFTON: I had a situation where we had a guy that had been on a hunger strike for a long period of time, and it got down to where he needed to be forcibly re-hydrated. No one would make a decision on that, you need the Minister's signature for that. No one would make a decision and then it came down past that and he needed to be brought down to Adelaide.
And I remember over two days that no one would make a decision, and then it got to where he couldn't be moved anyway and it looked like he was going to die, and myself and the Assistant DIMIA Manager, I said to her, ‘We need to do something because no one else is arguing about the cost’, so we went and spent a weekend with this guy and I convinced him to start eating.
I actually sat down and had his first two meals with him and so did she, and he started to make some sort of recovery. He will never be the same again but we kept him alive, but we got criticised for doing that, for keeping him alive, you know, no one would pick up - would make a decision about doing something about him. But because I took it upon myself to go and work with DIMIA and keep the guy alive I got investigated over that and she got severely criticised by her management as well.
MRS SULLIVAN: What do you mean you got investigated?
MR CLIFTON: I got investigated for my actions because they believed I shouldn't have done it, I should have just left him.
MRS SULLIVAN: By ACM?
MR CLIFTON: By ACM and ACM investigators, yeah.
MRS SULLIVAN: We've heard some talk about treatment of pregnant women in the last couple of days and you may have heard some of that, do you want to comment on that?
MR CLIFTON: In my time I don't believe that there was adequate treatment for pregnant women. And I mean, you know, different cultures need to be treated in a culturally sensitive way. It is not like treating an Australian woman that is pregnant in a lot of cases, and they did not have the resources to do it. I'm not blaming the medical staff, they were over-worked and under-resourced, and I think you have to remember too that they were changing over on six week periods, so there is no continuity or consistency there, plus the area they had to work in.
So yeah, it wasn't satisfactory but the staff and our - the doctors that came in and worked at the centre on six week rotations - on the whole they did the best they could do but they were very restricted and, you know, the staff hadn't had training in these culturally sensitive areas either, they were sort of working blind as well. And of course the end result was that the pregnant ladies would be very stressed and the men folk, the husbands, would be stressed, and of course the whole would become stressed and then before you know it they're not eating and things like that, or they're threatening self harm, so yeah, it was not good.
MRS SULLIVAN: So issues about getting milk for babies and so on was that …?
MR CLIFTON: There were issues about getting milk for babies, yes.
MRS SULLIVAN: What was it you couldn't, or …?
MR CLIFTON: No, it was just that some people found it, I guess, too hard or weren't listening closely enough, yeah. If we heard about it …
DR OZDOWSKI: Or it was too expensive? Because if you buy this formula milk it is quite expensive?
MR CLIFTON: Or it was too expensive, yeah. I've seen mothers ask for milk for their babies and it's been poured out of a plastic two litre container, new babies. They wouldn't have done it if their own wife was…
DR OZDOWSKI: So no formula milk was offered?
MR CLIFTON: No, not when I was there, there was none, no.
MRS SULLIVAN: There was none at all?
MR CLIFTON: No, none at all when I was there, not that I saw anyway.
MRS SULLIVAN: So normally that would have been dispensed say from the nurse rather than the mess?
MR CLIFTON: Yeah, and I know that the medical staff were trying very hard to do something about it, yeah.
DR OZDOWSKI: But it is not a standard - the mother determines what the kid will drink yes, and informs you, and then you just go yell out of the window, there?
MR CLIFTON: No, it wasn't - I mean it’s something that had never been thought of. I must say on that, and on the whole thing I guess, that, in my view, ACM went into this thing totally unprepared and probably not willing to really learn.
DR OZDOWSKI: Did ACM learn over these few years because now they are running for a new contract and, in a way, I would say you've got a bit of an advantage because you would have been running it for some time so you - everyone assumes that you got everyone trained able to do it?
MR CLIFTON: No, no, no.
DR OZDOWSKI: No, you didn't learn much?
MR CLIFTON: In my opinion, and supported by other people, they seemed to - over four years into this contract and they still don't know how to do it, and they still do not have it right, and they still fudge figures and they really have not got a clue. Four years in and they should be experts. They might appear to be experts in this but they are not, they are not experts in this area at all.
DR OZDOWSKI: Do you know your competition for the contract?
MR CLIFTON: Yeah, yeah.
DR OZDOWSKI: Are they any better?
MR CLIFTON: Okay, well I don't think Group Four will be any better because…
DR OZDOWSKI: The same?
MR CLIFTON: … they own ACM now or part thereof. APS - I will be honest, if anyone was to get it I would hope that it would be APS who have had one go at it and went away and learnt from their mistakes, and hopefully will come up with some better ideas about doing things. I think they've got an advantage because yeah, they did it, and maybe they didn't do quite so well but they're willing to come back and have another go, and they should have now learnt from their mistakes. And I think if it is someone like APS they'll be more transparent, you will be able to see better what is happening behind the scenes, they should be more accountable.
MRS SULLIVAN: You mentioned that you developed a handbook for emergency procedures. Has anyone in the last four years developed some sort of handbook or standards for dealing with families and children?
MR CLIFTON: When I was at Woomera we – myself, supported by some members of my team - wrote the unaccompanied policy procedure and a children's protection policy and procedure. So yeah, we actually did that at Woomera and sent it off to head office, but it was basically - from what I hear that is still being used, it is there anyway to be used.
MRS SULLIVAN: So there are at least two documents?
MR CLIFTON: Yes, there's two, yeah. I also wrote the - with some assistance of course - the HRAT policy, the high risk assessment team policy and I re-wrote that when I went to Perth as well, just fine tuned it because these things as you know they should - you should always come back to them and continue to update them.
DR OZDOWSKI: Sexual abuse of children, did you have any of it there?
MR CLIFTON: Not when I was there, I mean, there were allegations that there had been sexual abuse of that young male, that was before I started.
DR OZDOWSKI: Yeah.
MR CLIFTON: In my opinion from what – from asking questions and interviewing a lot of people I don't believe it happened.
DR OZDOWSKI: You believe it did happen?
MR CLIFTON: It didn't happen.
DR OZDOWSKI: It didn't happen.
MR CLIFTON: There was one young male when I was there that said that his uncle was sexually abusing him. This young male suffered some mental disabilities but I took him out of that area and we spent a lot of time with him and we investigated the incident, we got FAYS in, got the Police in, I instigated all that. It was found at the end of all that that there really wasn't anything, it was …
DR OZDOWSKI: More mental …
MR CLIFTON: … more mental but having said that we - I made sure that we kept him safe and isolated from that family, not from his friends but from that particular person. Whilst we were doing this we got him interviewed by a psychiatrist as well, a child psychiatrist.
DR OZDOWSKI: What about physical abuse of kids in detention?
MR CLIFTON: When I was there I'm proud to say that there was no physical abuse of kids because I wouldn't have stood for it, but during one four-week period when I wasn't there - I was actually … packing up my house and coming back up again - one young boy [name removed] was - he was a 10 year old boy and he could have been - he was a naughty boy, he was just a cheeky little brat but you could have a laugh with him and have a play around with him, he was okay, you know. But he upset [an ACM colleague] and they took him across to Sierra and handcuffed him and gave him a little bit of minor beating. I didn't find out about it until I had been back in the centre for a couple of months. I demanded that it be investigated.
DR OZDOWSKI: So you reported that to the Federal Police?
MR CLIFTON: I went to a manager who was on site then to file the procedures for FAYS, the Police and also head office. It was investigated, it was covered up and pushed under the carpet. I re-activated that again two months later because I was very annoyed that it had been allowed to happen.
DR OZDOWSKI: Pushed under the carpet by whom?
MR CLIFTON: By ACM.
DR OZDOWSKI: ACM, not by the Police?
MR CLIFTON: No, ACM - they you know, they fixed it so it didn't happen. I tried to get it re-started again two months later and it got pushed under the carpet and I suffered for that. You do what you have to do, I mean it should never have happened, he is a ten year old boy.
DR OZDOWSKI: So all that reporting that exists through State Government or the Federal Police, it is far from perfect?
MR CLIFTON: Yeah, I’ve got some criticism of FAYS. More often than not, when you reported something to FAYS they just wouldn't want to know about it, ‘You've reported it, don't worry about it, it's okay’. Well, it's very hard. I found that the - some of the Police from Port Augusta were very good, one young - one female sergeant in particular - I can't remember her name at the moment, but she was very good and really pushed. She would run into stone walls as well, brick walls as well, but I believe FAYS’ performance as far as children in detention goes is far from adequate.
MRS SULLIVAN: What about the Federal Police?
MR CLIFTON: Hopeless.
DR OZDOWSKI: Just not interested?
MR CLIFTON: Just not interested. They would come up there for the few days that they could, spend part of the time at the centre and the rest of the time down at the … very disappointed in their performance. Even when we did everything that they had asked us to do as far as report writing and all of that sort of stuff, we gave evidence and they would always find something else and it was just so - it didn't work, it didn't work, they were never satisfied, but then I had a feeling that they really didn't want to be there anyway.
PROF THOMAS: Given that the detention centre just like reasons may have to exist. What would be your recommendation that things should happen?
MR CLIFTON: I wouldn't have a detention centre at Woomera, I believe Baxter probably wouldn't be quite so bad, the environment won't…
DR OZDOWSKI: You would close down Woomera?
MR CLIFTON: I would close down Woomera.
DR OZDOWSKI: Is it beyond repair?
MR CLIFTON: It is beyond repair. It's never worked, it just never worked. I believe the model in Woomera in the township, I believe that has been fairly successful from what I hear, and I would expand those models. But I would definitely do more for the families, at least for the families, I mean get them out to like home detention, put them - re-settle them in areas where there is like home detention and - but get them out of that environment, that environment just changes people.
I mean detainees come in traumatised anyway, in most cases traumatised from past events that we can - we hear about but we don't really know what's it like because we haven't experienced it. And they come into an area like that, an area of uncertainty, and not knowing where they're going to go next and they feel helpless and hopeless, and then all these other problems will start. Small things compound one upon the other and yeah, it's not successful, I don't believe it's successful.
DR OZDOWSKI: It possibly cannot be successful?
MR CLIFTON: No.
DR OZDOWSKI: We possibly, Mr Clifton, need to finish our hearings. It is in a way very good to be able to talk with you about these things. Would it be possible to come to you by a telephone and talk when we are completing our reports?
MR CLIFTON: Of course.
DR OZDOWSKI: Just to check some facts. We will try to protect confidence with what you say as much as possible, but from my point of view it's of extreme importance to have this frank experience, and just to understand how this animal works.
MR CLIFTON: Yeah, I guess I could talk for a couple of days on this and I still probably wouldn't cover it all so I'm happy for any questions that you want…
[Contact details removed]
DR OZDOWSKI: Any other issues?
MR CLIFTON: There probably is but I think you've covered a broad area. I do think it is the whole model – the current model of detention is something that we should be ashamed of. I think it has - it is not good for Australia's image but more importantly than that of course…
DR OZDOWSKI: Yeah, just sending people there.
MR CLIFTON: … it is not good for the people that have been there, and that includes staff as well, but I'm ashamed of it. I'll be honest I am very ashamed of it and I tried very hard to make things better whilst I was at Woomera and also in Perth but - to my own cause too - but that doesn't matter. But yeah, I'm very much ashamed of it.
PROF THOMAS: So do you think that the staff one by one may also be damaged in some way?
MR CLIFTON: There's a lot of damaged staff out there and that's one of the reasons that I'm doing what I'm doing, … because for all the reasons, I guess whatever, a lot of people, a lot of staff, respect me and they need someone like myself in my position to come out and make a stand. And I think you'll find that a lot of people, maybe too frightened at the moment for a number of reasons, will then come forward. And they need to come forward to get help for themselves as well.
DR OZDOWSKI: Yeah, we have some of their facts quoted with a number of people who are in positions of authority and who - some of them spend longer times there, some of them shorter, but they were clearly under enormous stress, yes, yes - in a way one asks the question if they are under such a stress how did the detainees cope with it?
MR CLIFTON: There is a [person] … he has been there now for [dates removed]. He has been on anti-depressants now for probably [time removed], still going to work, and he's too frightened to do anything because he worries about his financial security and, you know, the future for his family and that, so he's stuck in this thing that he cannot get out of. And I fear for the damage, the long term damage that's going to do to him.
DR OZDOWSKI: Damage it creates for him.
MR CLIFTON: It's sad, it's even sadder for the detainees as well.
DR OZDOWSKI: Thank you, Allan.
MR CLIFTON: Okay, thank you.
DR OZDOWSKI: Thank
you.
