Transcript of Hearing - SYDNEY
TUESDAY 16 JULY 2002
Please note: This is an edited transcript
DR SEV OZDOWSKI, Human Rights Commissioner
MRS ROBIN SULLIVAN, Queensland Children's Commissioner
PROFESSOR TRANG
THOMAS, Professor of Psychology
Melbourne Institute of Technology
MS VANESSA LESNIE, Secretary to the Inquiry
AVILLION HOTEL
BALLROOM 3
DR OZDOWSKI: It is 9.30 so we will start another day off, formal hearings. My name is Dr Sev Ozdowski and I'm the Human Rights Commissioner. To my right is Dr Trang Thomas, Professor of Psychology at the Royal Melbourne Institute of Technology and to my left Mrs Robin Sullivan, Queensland's Children's Commissioner. Both of them do assist me with the Inquiry as Assistant Commissioners. Also, on my left Ms Vanessa Lesnie who is Secretary to the Inquiry.
Before I start listening to the witnesses I would like to stress that it's important to respect the privacy of individuals and in particular children and therefore I'm asking the witnesses and the media not to identify asylum seekers, not to disclose their names, and also not to identify any other persons and also when taking shots of the background if there are people who wouldn't like to be in the shots please respect their wishes.
Now, I would like to invite Dr Bernice Pfitzner as the first witness to come forward. Yes please take a seat over there. Thank you very much for your submission provided to the Inquiry and for the sworn evidence provided to the Inquiry. The role of this hearing is to test the evidence you provide us with and to elicit further information which would be helpful for the Inquiry. If you would like to submit any additional evidence in any time in the future please contact us in writing. If you would like to provide any names which can't be mentioned publicly please talk to the Inquiry Secretary. Now I would like to ask you to take an oath or affirmation.
BERNICE
PFITZNER, sworn [9.32am]
MEDICAL PRACTITIONER AT WOOMERA DETENTION CENTRE OCTOBER 2000 TO JUNE
2001
DR OZDOWSKI: Could I ask you to give your full name, address, qualification and the capacity in which you are appearing for the evidence, for the record?
DR PFITZNER: My name is Dr Bernice Pfitzner, I live [address removed]. My capacity was as a medical practitioner at the Woomera Detention Centre during the time of October 2000 to the end of June 2001.
DR OZDOWSKI: Thank you very much. Would you like to make an opening statement?
DR PFITZNER: Yes, Dr Ozdowski. I am very pleased to attend because I have long been worried about the high stress levels of the parents and of the children at the Woomera Detention Centre and I am very happy to give evidence so that we can make a positive change to what is happening and has happened at the Woomera Detention Centre.
DR OZDOWSKI: Thank you very much. As you possibly know we spoke to a number of doctors before including some of the doctors who were in Woomera and we would like to concentrate on some particular issues. First I would like to ask you to address the issue of care provided for pregnant and nursing women and also for babies and toddlers. Could I ask you a question, were there special arrangements made for people in these groups, for example, were the appropriate pre-natal and post-natal care, can you perhaps explain to us how women, pregnant women and young children were looked after in the complex of the detention centre?
DR PFITZNER: Yes, Dr Ozdowski. In my time there with regard to pregnant and nursing women, they were given the similar care as were the women in South Australia, namely that they had ante-natal checks which started as soon as we knew that they were pregnant and on an ongoing sequential basis. The medical doctor was to first check the pregnant women and then a specific nurse was then to follow up on a weekly, fortnightly and monthly basis. After that as the other women of South Australia were sent at 36 weeks to the Port Augusta Hospital, the Woomera Hospital did not have the facilities for delivering babies, so to my mind all the relevant investigations checks and care were given to the pregnant women.
The only problem with the situation was that there was such a turnover of nursing staff it was as you were aware a six week turnover and not always during that time did we get what I call an obstetric nurse to follow up and it was disjointed because it wasn't the same nurse that was caring for the women over the nine months of her pregnancy. So that was a bit of difficulty but I was able to provide the continuity of this but it wasn't an optimum situation and that brings me to the concern of the high turnover of medical staff, in particular the nursing staff there at the detention centre.
DR OZDOWSKI: From what you said it appears that women were spending a relatively longer period of time in Port Augusta Hospital, usually as I understand a woman would go a day or two days before birth and in the case of Woomera they went substantial periods of time in advance to the hospital. Were they told, were they explained the reasons for it?
DR PFITZNER: Yes. I don't think they were sent for any greater length of time compared to the other women in the South Australian community. It is the set procedure in the country because there were not obstetricians available easily, that they went to a specific hospital, in this case it was Port Augusta Hospital, to be looked after and that was at 36 weeks until their delivery which is, you know they stayed about four weeks, and this was normal procedure. My understanding is that they were involved in being informed as to why they were there for four weeks. The only difficulty was that the husband may not have been able to go with mother because the husband had to stay back and look after the other children that were left at the detention centre and although we did advocate that the husband and the rest of the family might go and stay at Port Augusta this was not able to be done because of financial or logistic reasons.
DR OZDOWSKI: And who informed them about going there, was it your responsibility or was it somebody else who was informing them?
DR PFITZNER: It was the nursing staff, well the medical officer decides that she was 36 weeks and it was time that the person went to in this case Port Augusta Hospital and the obstetrician was informed and he was ready to have the pregnant woman and she was happy to go. The only worry and sadness was that she could not, that the rest of the family could not go with her and visit her and see her over this period of four weeks.
DR OZDOWSKI: Was she been able to be in regular telephone contact with the family in detention centre?
DR PFITZNER: Yes, telephone contact was available.
DR OZDOWSKI: How did you know about that?
DR PFITZNER: I knew about it because I asked the staff with regard and I saw the husband and the children on a regular basis so I'm quite certain that there was contact.
DR OZDOWSKI: Now coming to the mother returning with her child, what supplies were available, were the nappies, soap, cotton wool and so on available for nursing mothers?
DR PFITZNER: Yes, there were formulas and nappies and all the various things that are needed for the newborn. However, these provisions had to be ordered very, very quickly and it was not always as smooth process of all those things that were needed being available. For example, like I had to ring down Adelaide at the pharmacy to order one dozen bottles for the milk and one dozen teats.
DR OZDOWSKI: So it was your responsibility to order formula milk for children or it was sa failure of the system that you had to take that role?
DR PFITZNER: I understand that the milk was available there, the only thing that I was asked to order that they couldn't get were the bottles, the feeding bottles.
DR OZDOWSKI: The feeding bottles. Was the formula made available to them?
DR PFITZNER: Yes, the formula was available because there were other babies and children that were there already and that's why they were there. There was never any difficulty in getting the formula, the only I suppose criticism that I would have was that there was no set procedure to make the order and it was done in a very ad hoc manner.
DR OZDOWSKI: We had evidence to the contrary in Adelaide that there were long delays in accessing formula milk because it was relatively expensive. We had evidence that some mothers had to feed children for a number of days with hot water and sugar. What would be your commentary about this kind of stories being told to us?
DR PFITZNER: Yes, that may have been in the early days before I was there. I was there 2000, maybe it was '99, but when I was there, there was never any inadequate supply of formula. I saw the actual formulas there and the other problem is a lot of staff were from Western Australia and Brisbane and Sydney I think and so they used to order all those formulas and necessary equipment from those places, whereas I was from South Australia, being a medical practitioner I was able to ring directly to the pharmacy and the pharmacy would bring it up within 24 hours, so while I was there, to my knowledge there was not any inadequate feeding formula at all.
DR OZDOWSKI: You mentioned earlier in your opening statement the issue of stress. Could you perhaps describe a bit more, what did you mean by it, how children could have been stressed in detention?
DR PFITZNER: For my part I noticed the stress being with the parents greatly. I mean the fathers and mothers that came. They were stressed because they were, in effect, in limbo. When I arrived they were there, say 18 months and some of them are still there and it is now three years and the reason leading to the stress and anxiety and depression was because they did not know the stage of the application of their protection visa, so they almost came daily with this high stress and depression not knowing from the Department of Immigration the status of their application and this, of course, is high stress percolated down to the children, for example, the mothers and fathers were very short tempered, they could not give the adequate loving and cuddling and playing that a mother and father would give in a more relaxed situation. They wouldn't be able to play and verbalise because the parents themselves were very very highly stressed and to my mind it was because they did not know whether they would stay or leave.
DR OZDOWSKI: Could family function normally in such circumstances?
DR PFITZNER: No, they couldn't, it's just like a huge bereavement or a huge death or a huge catastrophe. Father and mother are not in raring mood, if you want to put it that way, to bring up the children. When you rare children, I am specialised in child development so I am very aware of children's development and therefore there was no stimulation for the children in speech or activity or play and it would be the same for any of us in the community when we ourselves are highly stressed after huge calamity, and this is a huge calamity, you just have to depend on your own resources and the children are swept aside. Mother and father are impatient with them and there is not any more loving or caring or warmth left to give to the children because they themselves needed a lot of care.
DR OZDOWSKI: You were in Woomera at the time of relative calm and relative in a way, time when new people were still coming there. Did you observe any differences in families and children and parents from the moment of arrival till, say, a few months later and if so what were the changes?
DR PFITZNER: I wouldn't put it as relatively calm, there is never relatively calm at Woomera Detention Centre Dr Ozdowski. When I was there it was an in between period, there were people who had been there for two years and there were new ones still coming so I did have the opportunity to observe the different groups and the stress level that they went through. So the people who were there 18 months or so, they were highly stressed and therefore they were self harming, like hanging and slashing and taking overdoses which we had to monitor and help and send to hospital.
DR OZDOWSKI: Did it involve children as well and young people under 18?
DR PFITZNER: No. That is why I am quite surprised that depression and stress must be very, very deep now that the children are being involved as I hear from the media reports. When I was there we worked very hard with the children to give them play facilities and developmental activities and we worked very hard with the parents to try to bolster their moods but it was very, very hard because again, I stress, they did not know the status of their visa application and therefore although facilities were available to the children, play facilities, school facilities, the parents would not want to take them.
They lack any energy, they just stayed up very late at night as I understand, 3 or 4 o'clock with the children and then they would sleep after that from exhaustion, I understand and they would sleep till about 10 o'clock and we would have activities starting at 9 and there was a dearth of children attending these activities because of the high stress level and the non-compliance of parents who themselves were stressed and were not in any mood to send their children to school or to any play activity.
So, you asked me about the progress of the stress level, yes, I saw it back to front, I saw these one who were highly stressed, then I saw more people coming in. The people when they come in were full of anticipation that Australia being a very humanitarian, caring and I'm from Singapore myself, we always have admired Australia for being such a caring nation around the South-East Asian area.
We always said we wish we could have that same attitude that Australia has but unfortunately now, this has deteriorated and has gone down with regard to our status of a caring nation.
DR OZDOWSKI: So, you observed some change happening in people between arrival and
DR PFITZNER: That's right, yes, I'm going off the point, aren't I? Yes, I saw when they came in with the reputation of Australia having such a good human rights track record, they were quite sure that they would be processed quickly, that their application visa would be settled within six to 12 months at the most. When after three months I could see depression set in and after six months I could see severe depression, anxiety, self-harm and even some detainees having psychotic episodes and in lay terms, it is going mad.
That was very stressful to observe. We had to send a couple to Glenside to be looked after and although I did not follow up with Glenside.
DR OZDOWSKI: Glenside being?
DR PFITZNER: Glenside being our mental hospital there in South Australia. They had to be detained and assessed by a psychiatrist there and so with that kind of mood happening to their parents I can imagine what the feeling of the children can be. Certainly it would be very detrimental to their state.
DR OZDOWSKI: What about ACM and DIMIA staff, how were those levels of stress impacting on them?
DR PFITZNER: ACM staff when I was there I saw four or five what they call, "CERT" calls. This is emergency calls when there was a sudden uprising of a group of detainees where they would maybe set something on fire, maybe start slashing themselves, maybe start hanging themselves, maybe start throwing stones at the guards, maybe start breaking windows those are the sort of things we call a CERT for. When these were called we would be on high alert and numerous detainees and ACM staff came in with cuts and bruises and broken bones and slashes etcetera. It is very painful for even me to recall and therefore it was very painful for ACM who had to go into the compound and bring these injured people out for our medical attention.
I was aware that two or three, one was an interpreter just went to pieces, a couple of nurses just became hysterical, a couple of ACM guards had a fractured ankle, not hysterical but very angry with the detainees all these people I understand did have access to counselling but to my mind it would have left an almost indelible impression.
DR OZDOWSKI: So basically what you are saying is that mental health of everyone in Woomera was in danger including DIMIA officers and ACM staff not just talking about the detainees. So everyone was really having the impact of the situation.
DR PFITZNER: It was very stressful, yes and for ourselves being medically trained in managing stress and I gather the nurses would be so we would know how to manage and well I have seen such stress before but never in that kind of situation but I would imagine that DIMIA officers well a lot of them I had to be involved in counselling as well. The DIMIA officers maybe were not prepared, maybe some were prepared more than others. I was not involved in training them how to handle stress.
With regard to DIMIA staff they were not very much hands on except for the director who came in to help calm the situation but yes on the whole the situation would be highly stressful and one would not leave without some stressful mark being left on us all.
DR OZDOWSKI: Did you use any many medicines to manage the stress levels there?
DR PFITZNER: Of which people?
DR OZDOWSKI: Well anybody, but especially the detainees.
DR PFITZNER: Yes, the detainees - as a medical officer I was contracted to look after the detainees, as a side effect I would look after the actual staff, DIMIA staff, ACM staff if it was an emergency then it would go to the Woomera doctor who would carry on the follow up but my specific task was to look after the detainees and I would say without over exaggerating that all of the people there were highly stressed. They had come a long way from the Middle East. They had travelled from the Middle East to, from Europe, Middle East to Malaysia to Indonesia where they caught the boat. They had to wait for a week or two before they caught the boat to this land of milk and honey called Australia and
DR OZDOWSKI: But were you prescribing any medicines to manage this stress?
DR PFITZNER: Yes, I am just first identifying where the stress came from. So when they came they were highly stressed from the travel of coming. Then their stress dropped because they had hope in the first three or six months. After that time all these stress levels became so high and it was evidenced by all this physical self harm and yes, as we all know some human beings handle stress very well and did not need medication but there were a lot that did and when I say a lot I would say about 50 per cent needed some kind of anti-depressive, anti-anxiety, even anti-psychotic that is the kind of stress level, to alleviate their signs and symptoms. So, yes.
MS LESNIE: Did that include children, people under 18?
DR PFITZNER: No, no. For myself I try very hard not to include medication for children but placed - and required the two or three psychologists that we had to counsel them and try to de-stress them in what we call a verbal psycho-semantic way rather than medication wise.
DR OZDOWSKI: You mentioned various incidents like riots or burnings or hanging, two questions. My first question is were children exposed to such riots and the second question are you aware of the use of chemical restraints to manage behaviour of individuals?
DR PFITZNER: Yes, certainly the children have been affected by what they saw, the self harm of their parents or their friends by the stoning or the rioting or the complete undisciplined and non-controlled activities. The children would have observed all this and of course children would be highly stressed and there were psychologists that would be able to manage the children and there was a colleague of mine who was specifically asked to come up to handle the children but there was so much work to do and I do not believe that they had adequate therapy there because the stress level was so high and it even crossed over to the people who were supposed to provide the healing activities.
DR OZDOWSKI: Would it have a long term impact on children because we are really seeing quite a substantial proportion of them to start in community?
DR PFITZNER: I would have thought so being a child developmentalist of course never experiencing these kinds of factors and pressures I would have thought it would effect all children. But children are resilient and resistant and I would hope that with therapy they would improve. I am now on the Board of STARTTS which is Survivors of Torture and Trauma and I am there requiring that we have, the children in there have a baseline of what their stress level is and after three or six months assess the situation. So for the moment I have noticed their stress level but I can't see what the follow up is. I would think looking at our own children they all behave differently. Children on the whole are very tough people, with the right help and treatment they should come through right but there are some children who just can't manage it and I don't know what percentage this would be of the children that will finally become our Australian citizens.
DR OZDOWSKI: Coming to the second question about use of chemical restraint. Are you aware of use of chemical restraints regarding particular persons participating in riots, or misbehaving?
DR PFITZNER: No. If they were participating in riots the ACM officers would come and quell them as they do in prisons and so on, calming things down. I myself, and I during the nine months that I was there had to prescribe to two or three people who were very, very highly stressed, wanting to self-harm, and so I had to prescribe some calming medication in order that they also be taken down to our Adelaide Psychiatric Hospital or Glenside. That was the only time that I would have noticed what you call restraint, but the restraint on a universal basis, no.
DR OZDOWSKI: Just the last topic I would like to ask you about before I will ask my Assistant Commissioner to ask you questions. Did you have children with physical disabilities, or mental disabilities in Woomera?
DR PFITZNER: Yes, we did, and I assessed quite a few of them. Yes, I'm aware of it. There were some who, two or three who were completely deaf, weren't speaking. One was 5 years old. Another was 2 years old. Another was 7. And they were all referred appropriately to the Adelaide Children's Hospital, now called the Women's and Children's Hospital, in Adelaide, and given the appropriate treatment. There were a couple of children with very severe birth defects, and sometimes we marvel at how they came across, or severe birth defects, and they had what our children would have had. Sometimes they had it even more rapidly because we pressured them very hard, because the Woomera Detention Centre was not a place to have these children, with severe birth defects.
DR OZDOWSKI: And what period of time they were spending in Woomera?
DR PFITZNER: Before they went to the hospital?
DR OZDOWSKI: Yes, well, I assume if they went to hospital they went for a treatment and they came back to Woomera, or could you describe what was happening.
DR PFITZNER: Well, the one that I recall with severe - some severe epilepsy and severe mental disorder and severe physical disorder, was sent down, assessed, and returned, and the child was finally sent down to Villawood, I think, because Villawood is very close. It's here, yes, in Sydney, isn't it? Villawood is very close to a big children's hospital. We felt that the child had to be kept at the children hospital's in Adelaide somewhere, or - but not in the Woomera Detention Centre.
DR OZDOWSKI: And then, what, sent to Villawood Detention Centre?
DR PFITZNER: Yes, went to Villawood.
DR OZDOWSKI: What were the times of children with disabilities in Woomera? How long were they spending there?
DR PFITZNER: What was the time-frame before they went down?
DR OZDOWSKI: No, just, the longest time and the shortest time you would remember about children with disabilities being in Woomera.
DR PFITZNER: Well, when - I had a bit of a problem with regard to nurses referring and so on to us as medical. I suppose in a way some of the nurses were trying to protect us, and were not referring them to us, those who had what I thought were severe medical conditions. So that is one difficulty with regard to the nurses keeping from further - so this particular child
DR OZDOWSKI: So nurses constitute a barrier of access to medical practitioners?
DR PFITZNER: In one way if you want to be negative, we could put it as a barrier; on the other way we could put it that we were almost over-worked and the nurses were trying to filter the severe cases to us. So I would like to put it in a positive manner, that this was done, but of course there were errors made and sometimes delay. And this particular child that I'm thinking of, there was some delay. I would have liked to see that particular child when the child had arrived with obvious physical defect, mental and physical defect. But I think I didn't see the child until the child had become, fitting or severe breathing problems for about four to six weeks, and I happened to see the child and the nurses treating it, and called the child up and then identified the severe defect.
So in ideal circumstances yes, that child should have been seen earlier than four to six weeks. Once we observed the child, then it's not the problem. It just went very, very quickly because we then pressured ACM or DIMIA to get the appropriate guards, to get the appropriate appointment, to go down to, I don't remember whether it's straight to the Children's or whether it was via Port Augusta, and so
DR OZDOWSKI: Are you saying when you are talking about "very quickly", are you saying that the Department of Immigration was giving special priority to children with disabilities in terms of processing of their cases?
DR PFITZNER: I think it was up to the nurses and the medical officer if there was a severe problem. I would myself go down and say, you know, "This person needs to go". I'd speak to the DIMIA officer to get the release to go to the hospital, because that was a financial commitment there. And then go to ACM and say, "Let's get a car and guards and whatever is needed to go down," and ring the hospital and make the appointments. So all our medical role did not only refer to medical diagnosis. If we wanted the thing to progress it was up to the doctor and the nurse, and I took that task on, to actually go and push the thing through.
So it may be some of the other doctors may have felt their task was just medical, and just referred and hoped that it percolated through. In my experience if that was done, and I don't know, the progress would be very slow. And I would myself go and see the DIMIA staff, the DIMIA director, go and see the ACM staff, the ACM manager, to get all those things together. It was a very huge logistic operation, because you had to get permission, then you have to ring the hospital to make sure that the child would be received, and then the whole thing would progress.
DR OZDOWSKI: Who was responsible for financing of such an operation?
DR PFITZNER: I'm not sure because I don't know the DIMIA and ACM contract was, but I am aware, just listening to perhaps some of the arguments, that there was a gray area about who should finance what in the medical field. And, you know, some of the things, they took a long time. But in the end, I don't know about the financing but I just said, "The child has to go, and you have to work it between yourselves." So there was a bit of argument, and I did not stop to hear how they resolved it.
The biggest argument with regard to medical access was in regard to preventative work, e.g. immunisation, child development checks. Those were the things that I felt that the children needed, that they didn't get, and I, being from child developmental area, rang Child and Youth Health who I used to work for, to ask nurses to come up. And there was a huge hiatus there because who was to pay was the big issue because, as you're aware, the children are not sick, but still they need the stimulation to grow up in a healthy manner.
And in the end, as I think I put in my submission, I had to just immunise the 200 of them because it was such an argument as to whose responsibility of payment it was, to do this kind of preventative work. So that's the area I would be very critical about, an area with immediate treatment. It would be done but it was up to the medical staff also to push it along.
DR OZDOWSKI: Dr Pfitzner, thank you very much. I will ask now my Assistant Commissioners to ask questions. Let's start with Mrs Sullivan.
MRS SULLIVAN: You've mentioned treating stress. What would be the other three or four top illnesses you would have treated in the centre.
DR PFITZNER: Well, I suppose I would categorise it in two areas. One is with regard to the mental health which areas would be high stress, anxiety, depression, psychosis, we would have to handle that. The other area was physical. Physical - in those areas we would have high blood pressure that we have never seen in our life - 220, 250 over 150. I don't know whether you're medical but that is huge. Our normal is 120/80, okay.
MRS SULLIVAN: Right.
DR PFITZNER: I've never seen over 200. You know, about to explode. So they carried that. Whether that was a result of stress or whether it was a result of organic origin I don't know but we had to treat them and we had to investigate. There was severe diabetes, sugar-levels high, high - never seen before. There were heart diseases, murmurs. Many things we have never seen because we are such a developed country and these things are picked up when a child is born or blood-pressure is monitored. There were the chronic illnesses, asthma - severe asthma. Chronic illnesses.
Then there were the infectious diseases. The hepatitis Bs and Cs. The infections of the skins, scabies. You could see tracks of scabies under the skin, we had never seen before. Huge tropical sores, we have never seen before. It was a learning experience for all of us. I had to ring tropical medicines to find out the treatment and so on. And those were the tropical diseases. Intestinal parasites, we call them liver flukes and so on. Causing severe abdominal pain and so on. So that was another area of infectious diseases.
MRS SULLIVAN: And all of these were observable in the children and young people as well as adults?
DR PFITZNER: Scabies - the whole boatload had scabies.
MRS SULLIVAN: I think you've possibly answered this question but in terms of the prevalence of those diseases in the broader community, can you give an idea of whether it was double, triple? I'm just trying to get a sense of your workload.
DR PFITZNER: Compared to the Australian community?
MRS SULLIVAN: Yes, mainstream Australian communities.
DR PFITZNER: Oh, we cannot compare. Our Australian community is very, very healthy. Australian community would not have any of these infectious diseases, except if you were a traveller going to Kathmandu or something like that you would come back with these kinds of diseases.
MRS SULLIVAN: In terms of hepatitis were you vaccinating in that area as well as others?
DR PFITZNER: Yes, the workload was heavy. Very, very heavy. On 24 hours a day. We would get three or four calls through the night with regard to self-harm in the night.
MRS SULLIVAN: So, would the normal GP be able to deal with these illnesses you've just described or does it require some specialist knowledge?
DR PFITZNER: The normal GP, which I am also, would initially find it very stressful and very demanding. But it is not beyond the ability of that normal GP to get up to speed to learn about it. We've never seen some of these diseases, but if we are going to have migration of people from these areas we ought to put ourselves up to speed to work on it.
I don't think any specialist would be any better than a normal GP. Sometimes we would ring the specialist and they would say, well we've never heard of this intestinal infection, I'll look up my notes and come back to you. So in terms of who should be employed I think the GP is the most appropriate but the GP has to be the type that doesn't get stressed, and the type that is willing to read up on tropical medicines and to learn very, very quickly and hit the ground running.
MRS SULLIVAN: Thank you. The next question is also a comparison question in a sense. I'm trying to get a feel for the professional autonomy you would have as a GP in a public hospital for example and the professional autonomy you would have working in the detention centre. Could you make some comment about that comparison?
DR PFITZNER: Yes, with regard to working in the hospital you would be less stressed because you have powers of your colleagues, peers and seniors to relate to, to discuss, to give you a sense that you are doing things the right way. When I was there I was the only medical officer except for a part-time. We used to discuss but we had difficulty referring to our specialists. Skin specialists, mental specialists and other infectious diseases specialists. So, in that way we were more pressured with regard to letting us know whether we were doing the right thing. We checked constantly but the people were not on tap. With regard to autonomy, I'm not quite sure what you are asking me.
MRS SULLIVAN: My understanding of the management structure of health services is that it is quite often a nurse who is the manager of the health services.
DR PFITZNER: I see. Yes, we had a lot of trouble, we as medical officers had a lot of trouble with regard to the structure that was there. This is not a criticism, it's something that I hope will improve so I will speak in that vein. The co-ordinator was invariably a nurse. The nurse was there - I myself felt that the co-ordinator should be a medical officer because things were very, very complex there. High on the list were diseases that you never come across, that you couldn't explain adequately because you were hitting the ground running all the time.
So, if it was a nurse it needed to be a very special nurse who had qualifications in obstetrics, in infectious disease, in mental disease, in chronic health. Apart from also knowing the financial set-up and the referral criteria. So, whoever the co-ordinator, it was a very difficult job. And if the co-ordinator was compliant and worked well with the medical officer that was not a problem. If the nurse did not have a problem with regard to hierarchy structure that was not a problem. If we could have worked as a team with nurses - co-ordinator nurses and medical officers that was not a problem.
But I am aware, and know, that the turnover is every six weeks. And that was dreadful. We would have a team - the co-ordinator would be permanent - but then the teamwork of all the hard work would be gone. All the keeping of simple things like medication, intravenous, things we need in a hurry, the new nurses wouldn't know where it was. So, you were there stemming the bleeding and you ask, get intravenous therapy, they wouldn't know where it was. So, I had to ask someone to hold the bleeding. You knew where it was because you were long-term there, you'd have to get it and so on.
It was not the best situation for the stressful, almost war zone, to have. In that kind of environment you need a 12-month contract and a teamwork, and a team to know exactly what you mean when you say, get the connector to the intravenous, and they know where to go.
DR OZDOWSKI: Perhaps I could put an example to you? For example, if your were to refer somebody for treatment to a psychiatric hospital, which could be quite expensive, would you have the situation where the nurse - or somebody else in the hierarchy - would second-guess your diagnosis, or would act slowly on your diagnosis?
DR PFITZNER: Well, it may have happened to the other doctors but being the person that I am, I was insistent that I thought was right, because in the end I know that I would carry the can if something happened. So yes, it happened, we argued about whether it was necessary, money-wise, finance-wise, medical-wise. But in the end I would say, if you want it that way you sign the form to say that this person is not right, and you take it, and many times they - always in their review they would back, back down. But the thing is, why did I need to do it is the question which you would appreciate.
MRS SULLIVAN: My final question goes back to your comments about the resilience of children. I am assuming that you were concerned about developmental delay from some of your opening comments. Were there developmental delays occurring in children as a result of living in the detention centre that in fact are irreversible?
DR PFITZNER: As the result of staying in the detention centre?
MRS SULLIVAN: Yes, of the environmental factors that are there, or the social factors, or even the physical factors?
DR PFITZNER: I can say that there were children who came in with severe developmental problems, but that had occurred at birth or coming through, but with regard to children who were there and the environment impacting on that child, no, in the time that I was there. After seeing that, you know, I just eyeballed them, I didn't assess them, and to actually answer your question positively and certainly we would need to do a long-term follow-up.
MRS SULLIVAN: Is that some of the work you're doing on your new board, you are following through with some of those children?
DR PFITZNER: Yes, it's started, survivors of torture and trauma, yes.
MRS SULLIVAN: But your judgement is that sufficient time has not elapsed yet to make that judgment?
DR PFITZNER: No, well they are being assessed now. I would like them to be assessed as soon as they are discharged, and having a three month ongoing - whether this is done, I don't know, because of financial constraints and so on, but ideally that would be good and we could learn how we might manage the children better if there were some permanent damage rather than temporary damage. In my mind at this present time I believe it is temporary, but I could be very wrong.
MRS SULLIVAN: So no trends have emerged to this point in time in your data?
DR PFITZNER: No.
PROF THOMAS: Probably one way to eliminate the effect of pre-migration factors would be to observe the children who are born there, so during your time how do you observe those who are born there in the first 12 months of life?
DR PFITZNER: Yes, I was there nine months, and the children that were born there would probably be in the middle of my nine months, so I would have said I did not have enough time to observe, but indeed the children were feeding well, which is one of the signs, the children were ..... development was okay, they were holding their heads up and following. In terms of visual development they were tracking and following. So just informally I was not aware, and I saw the children when they came out and picked their food and drank their milk and so on, I was not aware that there was any developmental delay of the children that were born there, but look, I was only there nine months. They were born in the middle so I only had a six months' look at them.
PROF THOMAS: It's a pity, because now there are some children there who are sort of one year old, and it would be good if we could have some objective assessment.
DR PFITZNER: Well, in my time I did ask for a team of child developmentalists in the beginning of my nine months, who as you say have a base line knowledge of their development and later when they went out to have a follow-up of these. But because of financial constraints, because of the constraints of whether it was State of Federal payment, this did not happen in my time and I was very, very upset with that, to tell you the truth, because I am very, very aware of child development and wanted to show how we might best handle the children better if we had data from the very start. I am sorry I was not able to get a team up there.
PROF THOMAS: How about the older children? Do you see any age inappropriate behaviour?
DR PFITZNER: With regard to the older children, when I was there, I suppose they were not that long there. They were there maybe nine months, and they related well, played well and so on, spoke well, but towards the end of my nine months there were beginning to be some children who were getting very - who would not eat, who would sit alone on their own, because their parents were very, very highly stressed. Those are the children I did worry about, I don't know how they progressed, don't know.
PROF THOMAS: I am interested in the relationship between the guards or the ACM officers and the children. We tend to hear of the extreme cases, but to your observation how do you find them in general?
DR PFITZNER: In general, as we went along the guards were better and better trained. Initially as I understand it the guards were very criminal based, very hard edged, and I think - I had a great problem with that. They were detainees, you know, they were asylum seekers. So I was involved in training some of the newer guards to say this is not the way, they're not criminals, this is not the way to treat - if you are not treating them on a humanitarian ground then think that if you treat them such-and-such a way that you will get a better response. As we went along during my nine months time there, there was a great improvement in the handling of the asylum seekers of detainees. On the whole you are asking me were they treated well, with respect? I think it depended on the individual, but on the whole it was not optimum. Some treated them wonderfully, understood that they were human beings just like the rest of the community, and just treated them as friends and so on. On the other end of the wedge, they were ordered around, told to not give opinions, pushed back and those sorts of things make you lose your dignity and self-esteem. But there was a middle ground of people who were, you know, it was not optimum. Nobody had come across such a situation before, and certainly none of the ACM officers knew how to handle them at first. When I left, they were improving but again, they had to move after six weeks, and new people coming in, and had the whole situation again. It was hard, very hard.
PROF THOMAS: So it's back to accountability, how the complaint process, do the detainees complain if there is something that they think should not be done?
DR PFITZNER: I understand that there was, that they report it to an officer, the officer takes it through, and there was a specific officer dedicated for the complaints, but my hands were full with regard to looking after the mental and physical, so I did not. Sure, that area needed to follow-up but I cannot comment on that area with any great reliability.
DR OZDOWSKI: Dr Pfitzner, thank you very much for your evidence. Would you like to make a final comment, a final statement?
DR PFITZNER: Yes I would, Dr Ozdowski. I hope that this human rights Inquiry would not be a witch hunt for anything that has happened, or has passed, because there were a lot of people like ourselves who were concerned about what was happening. We had never come across such a situation as this before in our life. I imagine it would be like, you know, a war zone in Vietnam or wherever, I don't know, but we were all trying to work our best, and there were people who were not equipped with the ability to handle it, and there was this huge turnover every six weeks which made the situation worse. So I feel, and it's in my submission, that coming out from this Inquiry, that we should certainly identify the negatives, but put in place the positives, how we might do it better everywhere in the world. We're not doing it well and I think if Australia can come back to our human rights and our place in South East Asia, which has a high standing on human rights, and give a positive response how we might change the situation, it would be very beneficial.
DR OZDOWSKI: Thank you, Dr Pfitzner.
Now, could I ask representatives of the Muslim Women Network of Australia to approach. Thank you for coming. Could I ask you to start with taking an oath or an affirmation?
MS JAMILA HUSSAIN,
affirmed [10.32am]
MRS FAIKAH BEHARDIEN, affirmed
AUSTRALIAN MUSLIM WOMEN'S ASSOCIATION
Now I would like to ask you to state your names, addresses and the capacity in which you are appearing for the purpose of the record.
MS HUSSAIN: My name is Jamila Hussain, that's J-a-m-i-l-a H-u-s-s-a-i-n. I live at [address removed] and I am the - I am appearing as a member of the Muslim Women's National Network of Australia. I am the person who wrote the submission that is before you and I would intend, if it pleases you, to make an opening statement and simply mention a couple of things and leave it to my friend, Faikah, to do the bulk of the evidence.
DR OZDOWSKI: Could we ask the second person to do the introduction for the record and then we will go to the opening statement.
MRS BEHARDIEN: My name is Faikah Behardien, I live at [address removed] and I am here as a volunteer of the Muslim Women's National Network. I am also the Vice-President of the organisation.
DR OZDOWSKI: Thank you very much. Ms Hussain, please go with your opening statement.
MS HUSSAIN: I just wanted to say a few words about the organisation that I represent. The Muslim Women's National Network of Australia is a multi-cultural Muslim women's organisation. It has the aim of helping Muslim women in the community to integrate into the mainstream community. It also offers them help in physical and educational matters, for example we have run Arabic classes, we have run English classes for non-English speaking women. We have been very involved in interfaith work and in giving talks and seminars and information to churches and community organisations about the Muslim community and we also liaise with interstate Muslim women's groups. We are not a very large organisation and all our work is voluntary.
DR OZDOWSKI: Could you mention your experience with people who are either in detention or who came out of detention and in particular, children?
MS HUSSAIN: Yes. I have not been a frequent visitor to Villawood. Some of our ladies started visiting Villawood Immigration Detention Centre in Ramadan last year, that was December, and gradually we became aware that they were very unhappy with the conditions of some of the children there. Some of the ladies began to visit offering material aid such as clothes. At Eid-ul-Fitr we took food and tried to arrange a celebration for them and we also became very concerned about the education or rather the lack of education that was being offered to the children, in particular the children over the age of 12, ones between 12 and 18.
I took it upon myself to make inquiries to try to establish the position in other detention centres and I liaised with people interstate and also spoke to detainees about the educational situation. I think at that stage at the time the submission was written, the situation was that the younger children at Villawood were getting some education but there was some disagreement about how much. Some of them said a few hours a week, four or five hours a week. Some said only about two hours a week.
The older children were getting nothing. I was personally very concerned about this because some of those children had been there for over two years and that is a huge gap in their life for them to make up when and if they are ever released. I was also involved with Sister Faikah in arranging a meeting with the minister's advisory committee at Villawood, particularly a Dr Al Salami and Major General Glenny and there were three things that we made representations about there.
One was the education of the children and we asked in particular that the children be allowed to leave Villawood to attend local schools as we'd been informed was happening at Curtin and possibly one or two other detention centres. We also made a representation about religious matters and the situation there was that at that time there was no provision at all for Muslim religious instruction or for Islamic religious services.
At some time in the past before we became involved, the detainees had had the use of a building as a mosque. As I am sure you would be aware some of them managed to tunnel under that building and escaped from the detention centre. As a result, that building was taken away and there were no provisions at all in place for any religious instruction or counselling. We asked that a Shia Imam be allowed to visit the centre on a regular basis on Fridays to lead the jum'a prayers.
I do not know what happened as a result of our representations but at the moment, I understand the Supreme Islamic Council which is one of the peak Islamic bodies in the State has arranged for an Imam to be allowed to go to Villawood on Fridays to conduct the jum'a prayer. As far as I know there are no arrangements at all for religious instruction for the children or for anyone else there.
The third issue that we talked about was women's health needs. Particularly that the women be allowed to consult female doctors because as you know some or most of these women come from cultures where women are kept very much secluded and would be far too embarrassed to consult a male doctor particularly about any kind of personal matter. I am not sure whether what has happened in relation to that, perhaps Faikah would be able to say more.
The other thing that I thought perhaps to make some comment on is the question relating to Muslims in detention and the misunderstandings in the general community. I'm in my other life I am a lecturer in law and my particular field of interest is Islamic Law and South East Asian Law. I found through my discussions with other people in the community and all sorts of ways that there is a huge amount of ignorance about Islam amongst the majority of Australians, even well educated Australians and unfortunately people seem to get their knowledge of Islam and of Muslims and of Muslim culture from the media and particularly the horror stories and the sensational stories that get the most prominence in the media.
So I think there always has been a generally negative impression of Islam and Muslims in Australia. Since the Tampa crisis and since 11 September last year I have noticed that there have been two separate reactions amongst the general community. One has been a great increase in interest and our president Sister Aziza and myself have been almost run off our feet sometimes by going from place to place by invitation and giving talks to church groups, community groups, in my case members of the judicial commission and all sorts of other people about the Muslim community in Australia so there has been a heightened interest and hopefully an increase in understanding on one side.
On the other side there seems to have been a rise in prejudice. Now I don't look like a Muslim so I don't experience a great deal of that myself but from what other people have told me there have been increased incidents of racism if you like against other people. I've only noticed this myself in that I have written a couple of letters to my local newspaper and in return I have received quite a lot of anonymous racist mail
DR OZDOWSKI: But could I ask you to focus on children in detention, it is what this Inquiry
MS HUSSAIN: Okay, my letters to the local press were about children in detention. I didn't mention Muslims, just children in detention of whatever nationality but I noticed that some of the anonymous mail I had got back was about Muslims. Obviously there is a transfer from anyone in detention must be a Muslim and therefore we hate them. I find that a matter of great concern.
DR OZDOWSKI: Are you aware of this prejudice happening in the detention centres?
MS HUSSAIN: I have been, I have heard there is some but I wouldn't like to comment any further because I haven't seen it or heard it myself.
DR OZDOWSKI: The lack of religious education in detention centres, how does it impact on children?
MS HUSSAIN: Well children would grow up without a proper understanding, without any understanding perhaps of their religion and religion is part of life, part of culture and I would think on a long term basis it would have a rather negative effect. It would also I think divide them from their parents because their parents would presumably have been people who would have had religious instruction at least in their youth, would have grown up and lived in a society which supported their religion and their children are growing up in a society without religious education and when they leave, if they leave in a society which doesn't support their religion. So there is an alienation that takes place there.
DR OZDOWSKI: Does your organisation or is your organisation in contact with children who have left detention centres?
MS HUSSAIN: I think two who are very small and we couldn't really make any comment about them and some much older boys, possibly young men but I couldn't say any more than that.
DR OZDOWSKI: I will ask my Assistant Commissioners whether they have got any questions, Mrs Hussain.
PROF THOMAS: Are you aware of any information, anything at all about Muslim girls in these detention centres?
MS HUSSAIN: Well I have met Muslim girls there.
MS LESNIE: So what are some of the difficulties facing the girls that you met there?
MS HUSSAIN: Well the girl that I had most to do with was most concerned about the lack of education. She wanted to go on to university. Now that particular girl has been sent back. I really haven't had any other conversations with children.
MRS BEHARDIEN: If I could just add to that, the kinds of concerns that Muslim children have are exactly the same as any child would have and the fact that they are not getting an education is in itself of concern to all of us. So there isn't any specific discrimination if you wish against Muslim children although if you look at the stats most of the children in detention are Muslim but the fact that they are not getting a good education that they are in a context that is totally abnormal for them is in itself a huge concern for the whole community.
DR OZDOWSKI: Yes we have had quite a lot of evidence from teachers and so on, on this subject. Mrs Sullivan?
MRS SULLIVAN: We did see some evidence during our visits to the centres of Christian ministers of religion having access to detainees. Were you saying in your opening comment that access is not available or just that there haven't been appropriate people to take that function.
MRS BEHARDIEN: My understanding is that one of the leading Imam's not only in Sydney but in Australia was banned if you wish from coming to Villawood detention centre two years ago and so there isn't any structured religious instruction being given by anybody at the moment.
MRS SULLIVAN: Is that only Villawood or do you have a knowledge of the other centres?
MRS BEHARDIEN: I correspond with a minor, an unaccompanied minor in Port Hedland and what he tells me is that the people within the detention centre look after each other. So those with a little bit of religious knowledge would share it with the kids and with the other adults.
MRS SULLIVAN: This is because of the lack of an appropriate person to come in.
MS HUSSAIN: I could say also that I visited a couple of the young men and they asked for religious material to be brought in - we did that.
MRS SULLIVAN: And my second question relates to people who have been released into the community under whatever circumstances. It would seem to be natural for those people to gravitate to the appropriate cultural groups that they identify with. What is your judgment about the amount of support they are to get from such groups.
MRS BEHARDIEN: Fairly little, fairly ad hoc unfortunately and it is really not structured and it is really left up to the goodwill of the organisations concerned and the people concerned to provide it. So unfortunately there is no formalised structure to enable them to access religious instruction or religious support or counselling or anything related to it but the community is fairly good. So not to denigrate the community they are fairly good about that.
MRS SULLIVAN: Do they give priority to the unaccompanied minors or is it just a more general support?
MRS BEHARDIEN: I'm not quite sure if you'd call it, you know, like favoured support. That a bunch of - a group of boys from Bamiya, Hazzara boys, are being looked after both in the community, in families as well as in institutionalised areas or buildings if you wish and organisations.
MRS SULLIVAN: We have had some comments made that unaccompanied male minors - particularly those round about 15 to 18 - have been disaffected about education and training within the centre, and when they move into the community are similarly not attracted to education and training opportunities. They are at a bit of a loose end, they are searching around for some meaning. Is that your experience?
MRS BEHARDIEN: I've worked with them - not worked. I meet with a couple of families on a regular basis. One family has a 21 year old son who decided that he wanted to improve his English and went back to high school to do his HSC and he is back at high school. The younger brother and younger sister are still in high school. So they value education, and that is one family. The others are younger kids. They're at primary school, and they have gone back to school. They happily adapt.
MRS SULLIVAN: So, just to clarify, you don't have any experience of this type of young male with a
MRS BEHARDIEN: Not the unaccompanied ones, no. My experience has been with males as part of a family group, yes.
MRS SULLIVAN: So is there an identified community group that might focus on young people specifically?
MRS BEHARDIEN: You mean within this community?
MRS SULLIVAN: Well, it may not be your organisation, but are you able to identify a community group that such young people could make contact with?
MRS BEHARDIEN: Not really, no.
MRS SULLIVAN: Thank you.
DR OZDOWSKI: Thank you very much, to your organisation and to you for coming and making a statement, Mrs Behardien.
Now, we will have a break. We will meet again at 10 past 11.
SHORT BREAK [10.53am]
RESUMES [11.10am]
DR OZDOWSKI: Now, I would like to invite the Lebanese Muslim Association to come forward to give evidence.
KEYSAR TRAD, affirmed
[11.11am]
LEBANESE MUSLIMS ASSOCIATION
DR OZDOWSKI: Now, can I ask you to give your name, address, qualification, and capacity in which you are appearing, for the record.
MR TRAD: My name is Keysar Trad. I am presently the spokesperson for the Lebanese Muslims Association. The information in my submission was based on experiences that I had when I was either Secretary or Vice-President of the Lebanese Muslims Association.
DR OZDOWSKI: Thank you, Mr Trad. Before moving to hearing your evidence, I would like to thank you for your submission. I would also like to remind you of the orders we put in place, that you do not identify asylum seekers or you do not identify third parties in your evidence. If you would like to put some individual cases to us in evidence, please talk later to the Secretary to the Inquiry. Now, could I ask you to perhaps deliver an opening statement, and in particular if I could ask you to talk about your experience with children in detention centres, or children who have been released from detention centres.
MR TRAD: Firstly I'd like to thank you for accepting my submission, and for giving me the opportunity to speak with you today. I've been asked to only address one particular issue from my submission, although I raised a number of issues, and the issue that I've been asked to address is the issue of maintaining religious and cultural identity. So I've focused my opening words on the issue of religious and cultural identity.
From a general perspective cultural identity and heritage are crucial for many reasons, and members of our community, members of the Muslim community are particularly keen to learn about their traditions and cultural and religious heritage and to pass this knowledge on to their children. The significance of learning one's culture is acknowledged by article 8 of the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child. Under this article Australia must ensure that every child in Australia regardless of nationality or immigration status and regardless of how the child arrived in Australia, enjoys access to their culture and identity without discrimination of any kind.
Under this convention Australia is obliged to ensure the right of children belonging to ethnic, religious or linguistic minorities to enjoy their culture, use their language and practice their religion together with other members of their group. The convention also recognises the right of parents to provide appropriate direction and guidance to their children in maintaining their own religion and culture. People who are detained in a foreign country like the asylum seekers who come to Australia are generally limited in their level of access to authentic literature and other references about their culture and also in their ability to receive culturally sensitive services including religious services.
As a religious and welfare organisation the Lebanese Muslims Association received regular calls in the year 2000 from Muslim asylum seekers requesting visits by appropriately qualified religious clerics. The visits that we could organise could only be narrow visits in that not all Muslims in the detention centre could be brought together but only those named on the visitor application form. We were quite often asked by asylum seekers to make such visits and the issue was regularly raised that Christian clerics or counsellors or Christian counsellors were able to make visits and proselytise to the asylum seekers.
There were also comments that the Christian visits are impacting on some of the asylum seekers, some of the Muslim asylum seekers, in that they are made to feel that the Christian proselytisers, cared more about the Muslim leaders. Because the Christian proselytisers were making visits in a formal capacity whereas Muslim leaders could only make visits to individuals. This aspect has a greater psychological impact on children as they regularly raise the question, where is the Imam. Unbeknown to them the Imam was denied access or similar access to the Christian religious leaders.
In recognition of this problem his Eminence the Mufti of Australia as a spiritual leader of Australia's Muslim community took it upon himself to offer his religious services to the asylum seekers through seeking official permission from the Minister. The aim and content of these services included to administer religious and cultural services. To provide religious and cultural instructions. To provide counselling and solace. To maintain cultural links especially in the case of children. The Minister for Immigration refused to permit the Mufti to perform these duties on the ground that this may be seen as proselytising. The same concern of proselytising did not appear to stop the Minister from affording the opportunity to Christian groups to proselytise amongst Muslim asylum seekers. A fact that has been reported in an ABC Radio interview that was referred to in my submission. Also in the Christian Southern Cross newspaper also referred to in my submission.
I recall on one of my visits to Villawood, in or about November 1999, that detained asylum-seekers complained that other asylum-seekers who had expressed an interest in Christianity were better looked after and better treated. And rumours were afloat amongst the asylum-seekers that these people would get a speedy protection visa.
Now, in support of some of the statements I have a signed statement by his Eminence the Mufti explaining his conversation with the Minister in June of 2000 where I was present. He asked the Minister through myself acting in my capacity as somebody who speaks both Arabic and English and I was translating for him. The Mufti confirms what he asked the Minister and what the Minister replied to him, and the subsequent letter that was sent to the Villawood Detention Centre requesting an official visit where we would address both Muslim and Christian detainees.
Now despite being the spiritual leader of all the Muslims in Australia, a fact that has been confirmed by the Australian Federation of Islamic Councils on several occasions - including their recent Congress - the Minister turned around and said, I don't believe that you represent all the Muslims in Australia. So, if I allow you to go inside and preach - knowing that you will only be addressing Muslim asylum-seekers - then you may be proselytising some to your particular brand of Islam. This was really a shocking statement to us at that time. That people in the detention centre are free to attend and listen to the Mufti or not listen to the Mufti or to the representative of the Mufti. It just seemed to us at the time that there was no respect shown to the religious leader or to the rights of the asylum-seekers to receive services and instructions in their religion and culture.
DR OZDOWSKI: Yes, we will take this document into evidence. Now coming back to your statement, your experience is limited to Villawood only or you visited some other detention centres as well?
MR TRAD: I've only physically visited Villawood but I've had phone contact with asylum-seekers in Curtain and in Port Hedland and in Woomera. I've visited asylum-seekers, including children who have been released from Woomera and also from Curtain.
DR OZDOWSKI: We visited Port Hedland not that long ago and we spoke about the issue with detainees over there and we saw that there are two separate buildings used for praying purposes - as mosques. But the detainees over there told us that it is impossible to attract an Imam to come for a visit. It is not an issue of access over there, but rather an issue of finding an Imam who would be available to go there.
MR TRAD: During our visit with the Minister whose evidence - the Mufti made an offer to the Minister to go and visit all the detention centres around Australia. And he was offering that either himself or an Imam that he would choose would go and spend at least a week at each of these detention centres from time-to-time. Up to a week, depending on how much the Minister would permit. And the same answer was given by the Minister. That basically this would be seen as proselytising.
DR OZDOWSKI: Now you, I assume, requested a number of times access by Imams to different detention centres?
MR TRAD: There was the request to the Minister that I mentioned, at his office, and a subsequent request in writing and follow-up phone calls.
DR OZDOWSKI: It was only a single request - a request around a single occasion - or numerous requests?
MR TRAD: It was only those requests that I mentioned. There was one other instance, where the National Operations Manager of ACM contacted me personally, when 600 asylum-seeks in Curtain were on a hunger strike and many had stitched their lips. We were in consultation with each other as to the best way of addressing this problem. I suggested a delegation of several Muslim religious leaders from different denominations to attend and to provide counselling to the hunger strikers to break the hunger strike.
On that occasion it was surprising that the ACM Operations Manager was very open to the suggestion and he was making every step to get official approval. At the end of the day he said to me that we can only give approval to one person, not to the others, and the Minister could not be contacted to give that approval anyway. He is somewhere on the - I think he said on the Gold Coast at that time. By that stage it was about 9.00 pm at night and the asylum-seekers did not receive the appropriate counselling on that occasion.
DR OZDOWSKI: I am in a way surprised that the matter went to the Minister, because ACM appears to have the operational management of detention facilities. So at least as far as I understand the system the ACM Manager should be able to make that decision. But I see it is not your experience, is it?
MR TRAD: I'm surprised also. We were under the understanding that the ACM Manager makes that decision and this was why the letter that we sent to Villawood was addressed to the ACM Manager. However, we were surprised to hear that he had to refer it to Canberra. I don't know if there is a specific instruction from the Minister instructing the ACM Manager that requests from Muslim clerics has to be referred in that manner.
I have to add that the Mufti can go inside and visit asylum-seekers but on an individual basis, not as a group of Muslims. And this is a concern. That ACM had to basically go outside their operational procedures - their normal operational procedures - to put the request to the Minister and wait for the Minister's office to give a decision on the matter.
MRS SULLIVAN: Does he go in and visit on a one-to-one basis?
MR TRAD: He used to, early in 2000. After that request was made he has not made an official - he has not made the visit on an individual basis but he has been taking phone calls from asylum-seekers. I have made visits after that request was denied, but in a non-official capacity, and on an individual basis.
DR OZDOWSKI: How are the religious needs of children catered for in detention centres at present?
MR TRAD: My understanding at the moment is that the religious needs are only catered for by what the parents can provide. We were quite fortunate in - about a year ago in Villawood that some of the detained asylum-seekers had a reasonable level of religious knowledge. Some of them had undertaken religious courses overseas so they were offering some services. But these people are fellow detainees who are traumatised by the experience of detention themselves and they were also asking for outsiders to come in there and administer these religious services. To an extent they are able to provide some of the need - to meet some of the need, but not to the appropriate standards. Or not to the standards that are required or requested.
DR OZDOWSKI: What about access to religious literature? Would people have free access to the Koran or to other religious literature in a detention situation?
MR TRAD: There has been no complaint about access to religious literature. And on the occasions if we were asked - I have not received the request for religious literature myself - but if we were asked I believe that we could have provided them, but we have not tried.
DR OZDOWSKI: What would be the consequences for children of lack of access to religious education in detention?
MR TRAD: Religious education, particularly Islamic religious education, has a very strong emphasis on ethical and moral values, and also on the solace and the values of patience and perseverance. And being in a traumatised situation like the detention centres where you need constant counselling and constant offers of support, compassion and so forth, it just adds to the trauma if you don't have these services.
With the children not receiving appropriate and adequate instruction, only having access to instruction from their parents who are too concerned about their own plight means that those children are missing at a crucial time in their life some very important aspects or teachings that are crucial to their development as human beings at a time that they are so impressionable that will impact on their life as adults and it is really at this time that they need as much support as possible from community leaders and from people who are appropriately qualified in matters of religion and culture and history.
DR OZDOWSKI: Did you meet some more children and young people after they were released from detention centres?
MR TRAD: I have met some of them, not a large number but I have met some, in one case it was a little girl aged 2, in another case there were several children aged between 5 and 10.
DR OZDOWSKI: And did you observe any impact on them of the lack of religious education in the context of detention centres?
MR TRAD: I did observe some impact on these children but in the particular case of the children that I visited that actually had suffered other problems in detention centres. One of those children who is also in my submission was the victim of a gang rape by other detainees in Curtin Detention Centre. So they are already quite traumatised when I visited them and the children were basically behaving in a way that showed that they do not really have an understanding of their culture or background or anything like that, they were just behaving differently.
DR OZDOWSKI: Mrs Sullivan?
MRS SULLIVAN: Are there any special provisions made for unaccompanied minors that you're aware of in terms of cultural maintenance and religious education?
MR TRAD: I am not aware of any special provisions for unaccompanied minors in terms of religious education or cultural education.
MRS SULLIVAN: So when you said it becomes the parents' responsibility these people have no parents so do the other adults in the centre take any responsibility?
MR TRAD: I could only make an assumption that some of the other adults would take on that responsibility and perhaps some of the other adults may even seek to prey on these children.
MRS SULLIVAN: And in terms of when the unaccompanied minors are released to the community I actually asked this question of an earlier group, is there any focus by your community on the unaccompanied minors who have been released?
MR TRAD: If we're advised of an unaccompanied minor who is released then we as a community have already worked out a program as part of community services a foster parenting program where we would try and place the unaccompanied minor with foster parents from their own background but I have not received a case of that nature in my organisation to date.
MRS SULLIVAN: So you would need contact from DOCS in order to do that?
MR TRAD: We would need contact from DOCS or the department. One of the problems that we have is that when the Department releases someone if the family needs any community support they will not release them to an organisation that receives any form of DIMIA funding. Our organisation has a community settlement officer who is funded by the Department of Immigration so they would not use us as a point of contact for these matters but previously they were using an organisation by the name of Supreme Islamic Council of New South Wales because they are not funded but interestingly the Supreme Islamic Council came to us to seek financial support to provide for families in that situation.
MRS SULLIVAN: So there's a willingness but nothing has actually happened?
MR TRAD: No.
MRS SULLIVAN: Have these children gone to other foster families to your knowledge?
MR TRAD: The only case that I know of is that particular family where the organisation that was enlisted for support came to us for financial assistance and they are managing that particular case. We are not permitted to manage it as an organisation through the normal channels, we would have to do it as executives working on it and this is how I take on these cases as an executive officer in the organisation but I cannot allocate any of this work to my staff because one of the staff is funded as a community settlement officer.
MRS SULLIVAN: Pardon my ignorance because I don't come from New South Wales but is there an Islamic schooling process in New South Wales?
MR TRAD: There are several private schools that also teach, that are run by a Muslim board and they do impart instruction in the Islamic religion. However, not all Muslim children go to these schools, many of them including my own children go to public schools and there are after hours schools that they can be taken to weekend schools where they can receive special instruction. They also have full and free access to lectures at the Mosque where they can be taken to receive religious instructions.
MRS SULLIVAN: And to your knowledge do any unaccompanied minors go to either the weekend schools or any of the other opportunities that you are aware of?
MR TRAD: I don't have any knowledge on that matter.
MRS SULLIVAN: So how would they get the knowledge that those opportunities are available?
MR TRAD: From my understanding they would get this knowledge if they are placed with parents who are from their own background who would understand the importance of continuing their education or of introducing them to education about culture, identity and religion.
MRS SULLIVAN: That's not provided at an exit interview by DIMIA for example?
MR TRAD: Not to my knowledge.
DR OZDOWSKI: Professor Thomas?
PROF THOMAS: To your knowledge do most of the children placed with foster families, are most of them placed with foster families of Muslim background?
MR TRAD: In New South Wales, and this is outside the detention centre issue, there is every effort to place them with foster families form their own background and the programs are in place to seek Muslim foster parents for Muslim children. As far as detention centres are concerned I have absolutely no information as to what happened to the unaccompanied minors who were given visas.
PROF THOMAS: Thank you.
DR OZDOWSKI: Do you have any concluding statement you would like to make?
MR TRAD: I don't except thank you very much for this opportunity and I hope it all goes well especially for those unfortunate people in detention centres and for the children and the minors, thank you very much.
DR OZDOWSKI: Thank you very much Mr Trad.
Now, could we ask Mr Harold Bilboe to come forward. Thank you, Mr Bilboe. I would like to ask you to take an oath or affirmation.
HAROLD
ARTHUR BILBOE, affirmed [11.33am]
PSYCHOLOGIST PREVIOUSLY WITH ACM AT WOOMERA
DR OZDOWSKI: Thank you. Now, could I ask you to give your name, address, qualification and capacity in which you are appearing for the record.
MR BILBOE: My name is Harold Arthur Bilboe. I am a psychologist. My address is [address removed]. I appear here as a psychologist who used to work with ACM at Woomera in Curtin for approximately 16 months of long term continual contractual employment from September of 2000 through to January of 2002.
DR OZDOWSKI: Thank you very much. Perhaps before we move to hear your evidence, I would like to remind you that I am asking that you won't identify asylum seekers and also that you won't identify any the third parties. If you would like to put individual cases to our attention please talk, after the hearing, to the Secretary or please put further written submissions. Thank you very much for your submission. Would you like to make an opening statement or should we go straight to asking you questions?
MR BILBOE: I think it would be best if we go straight to asking questions because I am appearing here as a result of a subpoena.
DR OZDOWSKI: Thank you. Could you let us know, to start with, why did you leave Woomera?
MR BILBOE: Basically my contract with ACM was not renewed at Woomera in December, although I had given indications that I was willing to continue. I was offered one month at Curtin. At the end of that period, again, no new contract was offered. I believe - I can give an indication as to why I believe that that occurred.
DR OZDOWSKI: What would you think why it wasn't renewed?
MR BILBOE: Raising too many concerns about what was happening in regards to the emotional, psychological and physical well-being of both adult detainees and children who had been in long term detention.
DR OZDOWSKI: You were raising that with whom?
MR BILBOE: Sorry?
DR OZDOWSKI: With whom were you raising these concerns?
MR BILBOE: These concerns were raised with ACM management and also with DIMIA management.
DR OZDOWSKI: Could you tell us what are the main psychological problems facing children in detention centres?
MR BILBOE: Many of the children arriving in Australia from countries by boat, or whichever way they come here, seeking asylum have experienced some form of trauma in the land that they have left. Many of the unaccompanied minors that we have in detention had witnessed extremely violent events. Some even witnessing the murders of family members. I know of particular cases where children witnessed their families being hit by missiles. So they arrived here having experienced trauma, having a traumatic experience in the process of coming here and then being re-traumatised by the very nature of the detention process.
DR OZDOWSKI: Are there any strategies in place to assist children with coping with the fact of being in detention?
MR BILBOE: It is very difficult to put into place strategies which assist children who have been traumatised within a traumatic environment. Apart from providing basic assessment, counselling and supports, shelter, minimalistic education, minimal health care, within a wire cage, that's basically what's provided.
DR OZDOWSKI: So what you are saying, as I understand, is that within the detention centre complex, really the
MR BILBOE: It's a no-win situation.
DR OZDOWSKI: needs of kids cannot be taken properly.
MR BILBOE: Cannot be achieved with long term therapeutic outcomes within that environment.
DR OZDOWSKI: We heard in some other evidence that basically the role of a psychologist in detention centre is to assist detainees to keep a holding pattern. Would it be your experience too?
MR BILBOE: The primary role of a psychologist, as I perceived it, was a no deaths in custody policy. That was the aim. It was to achieve that we maintained a situation where no detainee committed suicide.
DR OZDOWSKI: Is it an official policy, or it's an understanding, or how does it work?
MR BILBOE: No, it would not be stated as an official policy, but all the psychologists are active members of the HRAT Team, which is the High Risk Management Team, a primary role is to assess risk, to manage detainees who have self-harmed, self-mutilated or are threatening suicide. I, myself, have witnessed some horrific injuries on individuals, both adult and children. I have seen people hanging off the fence and
DR OZDOWSKI: By the neck?
MR BILBOE: Hanging off the fence with sheets around their necks. With ACM officers holding them up, basically, whilst they are cut down. I have seen people up in trees slashing themselves up with razor blades and I must say that while I am watching this children have been watching it as well.
DR OZDOWSKI: I can clearly see it impacted on you, didn't it?
MR BILBOE: An environment such as this can only impact on a professional when the professional finds himself in a no-win situation, when the recommendations, the therapies that they are trying to implement are being thwarted by the very system that is supposed to be providing a protecting environment.
DR OZDOWSKI: What would be impact of such involvement of children in your assessment?
MR BILBOE: Well, my belief is that children arrive after experiencing trauma. The very nature of detention is traumatising to the extent that we will inherit children who are exhibiting symptoms of post-traumatic stress disorder, behavioural disturbance and increase social costs in providing care for these people, as young adults and as older adults.
DR OZDOWSKI: Would it have a long lasting impact on children, in your professional judgment, or from the moment they are out will they be able to function normally? Or within a reasonable period of time after they are released?
MR BILBOE: I have extensive experience working in child protection prior to coming into the area where I am now, and I would say that any child who has experienced a trauma, be it sexual assault, physical assault, will have long term, life-long, impact. It's what resources are made available to them in the community afterwards that will diminish the level of that impact. But there will be a long term impact.
DR OZDOWSKI: As you know there are, in different states, different child protection agencies which have legal responsibility, for looking after the well-being of children. Quite often when you find a child in the broader community who doesn't attend school or who is in a situation of conflict, or in some other circumstances, the state authorities take a whole range of steps to redress, or to address, the situation at least. How would you compare the children in detention centre to the children in broader community which attract attention of state officials?
MR BILBOE: There is an ambiguity here in the legal system because any child in, say, New South Wales who is living in an environment where they are being, or are likely to be abused, there are statutory requirements to provide care, well-being and, in fact, protection for that child. Even to the state of removing that child from the environment that it is perceived that it is not safe. I used to fulfil that role as a District Officer. Children in detention come under some ambiguity because they are not under the - covered by their State or Territory laws of Child Protection Acts. They are on Commonwealth ground. Although, in Woomera, after the Flood Inquiry we started involving FAYS.
It was very unclear as to what their actual legal actions could be taken by them, as far as protecting or removing children, because they were under the care of the Minister of Immigration. Which raised a lot of ambiguities for me, and probably led to the termination of my employment because I was raising questions regarding who was the guardian, or the guardian ad litem, for the unaccompanied minors. Because when you remove a child in New South Wales, and take them into care, their guardian becomes the Minister for Community Services. He becomes their parent, ad litem.
DR OZDOWSKI: Yes, leaving the legal issues on the side, would children in detention facility approach the definition of an abused child, or child at risk, which would warrant some investigation if they would be outside detention?
MR BILBOE: Okay. The definition of child abuse is a child who has been physically abused, sexually abused, neglected or exposed to physical, exposed to emotional and psychological risk. Every child in a detention centre fits within one or more of those categories. Every child.
MS LESNIE: Does that mean that you notified FAYS as to the risk of every single child in Woomera?
MR BILBOE: No, that would never be allowed to happen. FAYS were notified with specific cases of children who presented with unexplained or injuries with an ambiguous explanation. After the introduction of the new playgrounds in November of last year, at Woomera, the beautiful ones that you see in the magazine there, we had numerous injuries because these children had never played on playgrounds such as those. They had no idea about appropriate or safe playing on those grounds and, yes, you have beautiful one and a half inch matting on top there which looks very pretty, but underneath it is hardpacked ground. So when they fall off they might as well be landing on concrete.
MS LESNIE: When you say you wouldn't have been allowed to notify
MR BILBOE: No, no, it would be not practical. When we did notify FAYS the issue became of what action could they take to actually intervene. What services could they provide? Could they remove the children? No. Could they place them in foster care? No. So it was a case of managing as best we could within the facilities that we had.
MS LESNIE: So what you mean is that you would have liked to have notified them but there was no point because there was no feasible solution to it.
MR BILBOE: No solution being offered.
MRS SULLIVAN: So you didn't personally report any individual child?
MR BILBOE: Yes, I did.
MRS SULLIVAN: How many?
MR BILBOE: It would be hard to specify exact numbers, but we notified families with four or five children. We notified individual children as a team. It would be in the 20s, 30s of individual children that were notified in South Australia, going way back to a specific incident last year, the year before last, which resulted in the Flood Inquiry and through to numerous incidences last year. A lot of children were notified because of hunger strikes, self mutilation.
MRS SULLIVAN: And was each one of those investigated in some way?
MR BILBOE: Yes. A lot of the investigations were done internally.
MS LESNIE: And where there was an investigation and recommendations by FAYS were those recommendations implemented by ACM or DIMIA?
MR BILBOE: Not to my satisfaction.
MS LESNIE: Could you give an example?
MR BILBOE: Well, children who we felt should be removed from the centre, placed in community foster care. It was only until this year that that's actually started happening. Even UAMs who had been in detention for several months, they only basically left detention earlier this year, although there were numerous concerns regarding self harming, hunger strikes, their exposure to serious acts of self harm by others, riots, demonstration, destruction of facilities on a daily basis. What was happening, they were being moved from one compound to another compound.
We had one child that was in foster care with a family within the centre with a young child. We strongly advocated for that child to be released with the family who he had bonded with. It didn't happen. By the time I left that child had been with five different families.
DR OZDOWSKI: Now, could you tell us more about self harm? Could you say something about how often you witnessed it, what ages of children were involved and how severe it was?
MR BILBOE: Self harm ranged from incidences by definition of people who were, say, not presenting for meals. They would come under HRAT, so we would be investigating why they were not attending for meals. Were they on a hunger strike? A lot of concerns were raised about children not attending or being on a hunger strike. This was found in many cases to be untrue, however because of the parents' level of distress, anxiety, depression, they were not attending for meals so the children weren't attending.
Arrangements were made for the children to attend with other detainees where the families were quite seriously depressed and ill, officers would volunteer to escort the children to the dining room. I can't say that I ever saw children, I would say children under the age of, say, 14, who were actually on a hunger strike. Children over the age of 14 who were involved in hunger strikes, were mostly UAMs. As far as self harm is concerned in the cutting area that was used - young children didn't actually have access to razor blades unless they could get them from an adult.
Some of the UAMs did have access to razor blades. They became involved in a cutting - now, I try not to sound blase but the fact that I saw so many varieties of cutting from superficial scratches to major lacerations, I would describe theirs as minor scratching, but the fact that they were doing it was of great concern.
DR OZDOWSKI: How old were the youngest children doing it?
MR BILBOE: About 14, that's with the razor blades. The other self harms were - with the UAMs was becoming involved in the demonstrations, placing themselves at risk by their involvement in some of the demonstrations. I have seen young men who turned out to be UAMs cuffed, cuffing is with flexi cuffs. I don't know if people here are aware of what they look like.
DR OZDOWSKI: If you could describe it please.
MR BILBOE: It's basically - it's a piece of plastic with two circles that go round and through. You put them on a person's wrists and then you pull it to a tension. You're supposed to pull it to no more than two fingers tight. So there's no - it can move. The part that is concerning is that in many cases during demonstrations and riots the cuffing was behind the back. Persons were cuffed behind.
DR OZDOWSKI: Including children?
MR BILBOE: Including young males.
DR OZDOWSKI: Females?
MR BILBOE: No. I can't say that I saw a female cuffed at any stage. When they were identified as being young minors, these cuffs were removed, however marks still existed on their wrists. There were incidences involving where reports were made by myself and my colleagues expressing concerns that the injuries sustained on some of the detainees would raise concerns regarding the excessive use of force. One needs to remember that the children were witnessing these events.
DR OZDOWSKI: Now, you mentioned earlier hangings. How did you hear circumstances of young people or children attempting to hang themselves?
MR BILBOE: I am not aware of any young children attempting to hang themselves, but I am aware of young children witnessing these events and seeing people cut down. There is a specific case that I was involved in, involving a young boy who became extremely distressed. That young boy was, prior to my arrival at Woomera in September of 2000, described to me by teachers, officers and other staff as being a relatively normal child, quiet, a passive little boy. However he witnessed some very severe riots and demonstrations.
He witnessed a breakout. He witnessed a person attempting to hang themself in a tree. The child became extremely traumatised. I was unable to treat that child at Woomera and made recommendations that that child be transferred. After the family was rejected, the family was actually transferred into what was the high security compound at Woomera.
DR OZDOWSKI: The isolation cells?
MR BILBOE: This is the - what was referred to as Oscar or Sierra Compound. There were about four families that were moved into there. With regards to the strongest possible objections from the psychologists about the inappropriateness of placing women and children in the compound which was 80, 90 percent male where a daily occurrence of self harm and self mutilation, threats of riots. There was one family - this particular child was moved in there with his family and again witnessed more events and deteriorated drastically and I recommended that the child be removed from Woomera and I was told, well, where do we send him? I said, To Sydney, because they have access to Camperdown Children's Hospital and children's psychiatric services, because I could not treat that child at Woomera.
Another family involving three girls was placed in that compound. Those girls never left their room.
DR OZDOWSKI: Why was that so?
MR BILBOE: When you've got about 200 males in a compound with three adolescent girls, they didn't come outside. They had their meals in their room. We complained and complained and complained about the inappropriateness of these sorts of things and the emotional, psychological impact that this has on the individual children and their families. Eventually the father of that family signed a Repat and left, went back. He indicated to me that he expected not to survive himself, but he believed it would be better to go back and know what was going to happen than to stay here and watch his family deteriorate.
DR OZDOWSKI: One more thing regarding self harming, lip sewing, did you witness any of lip sewing?
MR BILBOE: I witnessed numerous occasions of lip sewing, going back from 2000/2001, right through to just before I left. Mostly adults.
DR OZDOWSKI: With adults, what about children?
MR BILBOE: I have been asked on occasion did I witness lip stitching with children, specifically UAMs, etcetera, and stories about adults stitching children's lips. I only ever heard that statement come from the Minister's lips. I never saw it at Woomera. I never witnessed it. I never saw any children who had their lips stitched at Woomera.
DR OZDOWSKI: Do you know of any parents encouraging children to do any self-harm?
MR BILBOE: In fact, I only saw parents doing the opposite. Trying to - the interesting part is that as a psychologist, being there, the time that I had, I had the opportunity to build up relationships with families. So I was able to encourage the families to start to change some of the cultural behaviours which -